Teeda's a great guy ;)
You can buy it for 56€Originally Posted by Luis
http://www.cdiscount.com/s-103/motos...alypse+3d.html
Senior Citizen
As for Jaffe what he says makes sense but from another perspective. If what developers had in mind comes out at around 3 to 4 hours then sell it cheaper and on PSN instead of using filler to extend the length e.g their original intention was a 8 - 10 hour game but they miscalculated. Is that what he is saying though? because it certainly doesnt sound that way if he is calling out DS2 on this. Is he saying Visceral started the game and came up short adding another 8 hours of boring filler? Now we are talking about poor gameplay design that doesnt keep you hooked in his opinion. We arent talking about filler when it comes to DS2 in my opinion but he seems to think so. Theres a distinction between games with filler and poorly designed games and maybe Jaffe is being a little harsh if he is distinguishing DS2 as a game that has 8 hours of filler. Maybe he should be complaining that he doesnt like the gameplay design. Where do we draw the line with this distinction because again i think Jaffe's opinion is dead wrong about DS2 as the entire DS2 ride had me on the edge of my seat and the game was awesome. If it were released as a 4 hour game i wouldnt have bothered.The small and 4 hour games are not even comparable to the blockbuster titles in terms of quality. His point isn't that games should be 3-4 hours, he's simply saying if your game winds up being only 3-4 hours, or 5-6 hours, don't stretch it, and release what you have that's quality, while selling it at a decent price range.
Thats up to publishers and unfortunately no sales = no go for publishers. Also where do you draw the line in terms of gamer demographics? Look at our disagreement about Uncharted or yours with Masteratt about RDR. Who should Rockstar or Naughty Dog then cater to? Should they cut the boring bits of RDR and Uncharted up to please your demographic or please mine which found nothing boring about Uncharted 2? Its not quite that easy is it? Also we get so much complaint about story can you imagine how much worse and generic stories will become in our favourite games in a 4 hour title. A lot of ppl point their fingers at our favourite genre RPG's and complain about menus and grinding which they find boring. Wouldnt releasing stripped down RPG's in terms of story, gameplay and the rest upset you? Bioware are stuck between two demographics and look at the hate they are getting. Hell ill shoot someone if Mass Effect 3 is shorter than Mass Effect 2. I couldnt get enough of the game and im purchasing all the DLC. Others found the game boring after 20 hours. So again which demographic do publishers cater to? You have to remember devs approach publishers/investors with their game idea and if the idea from the get go is a 3 hour game then go for it but still it screams PSN to me. There is nothing wrong with releasing more blockbuster games like Quest for Booty, Wipeout and Dragon Age Awakening on PSN. In that sense i think you are selling PSN a bit short. Will it sell more though is the question? Buidling the tech might be an expensive proposition for a 4 hour game. This is why devs are drowning us with DLC because the tools and the game world is there so the proposition of a 3 hour Severed DLC pack for DS2 is inviting. Its easier to release Ballad of Gay Tony with Liberty City already built than to start fresh with GTV.
Sure, there's always money to be made, but people buy things on hype, graphical appeal, etc...sales aren't the end-all-be-all to determining how good a game is or could've been. A simpsons game on PS2 sold like over 10 million units
Lets not compare Uncharted 2 with the Simpsons please. The series more than deserves its sales
He was being specific with Dead Space, and that's his personal preference, but his overall statement I believe is spot on. I happen to share his sentiments on the game getting boring after awhile, but again that's just our preference, it would have more than likely sold less if it was a shorter game, but that's only because of consumer expectations and current trends. If more devs try to break the mold, so to speak, I think you can have smaller, middle sized games selling just as well as the blockbusters. A great example would be Heavenly Sword, no need for that game to be $60. But, it had some quality in it. It should have been released online as well as disc based and been priced much cheaper, overall, that's what Jaffe is saying, and I agree with that completely. Devs need to put out quality, instead of trying to justify a $60 price tag.
And Uncharted was great fun, but as he said, how long do visuals last? Not very long at all...Not saying it doesn't have a great engine underneath the set-pieces and cut-scenes, but there's a lot of room for improvement, and I felt the game certainly didn't change enough from it's first iteration to second. I believe the devs were at once even calling the game an action/adventure title. In comparison to a much older game (Legend of Zelda) of the same genre, it's almost a joke comparing Drake's move-set and the types of gameplay that take place. Now before I get bashed about how great the story telling is, and how dynamic the dialog, and set-pieces and how its a whole experience, let me just say I GET IT lol. But for me personally, I agree with Jaffe that gameplay is the most important element in the game, and these blockbuster titles don't seem to feel that way all the time.
We will agree to disagree here about Uncharted. On Zelda though i have to say i see a lot of ppl who feel the same way about its design as i do. Run into a locked dungeon, find a new weapon or item in the game later and then backtrack. Its called the Zelda like experience in other games. It gets boring as hell but Zelda fans will disagree with me and who am i to say strip Zelda down to its best and sell it cheaper instead of forcing me to constantly backtrack for half the game? Its a matter of selling to the Zelda demographic and their taste in games really not mine or Jaffe's. The worst thing an RPG can do is start to feel formulaic and FF is just as guilty.
Just look at what's MOST popular this generation. It's COD, and Wii Sports. Both games talked about, highly, critically--acclaimed, bought over and over and over again by millions of people because of the connection with the gameplay users's experienced with them. As much as I love ND, I think they could focus on that aspect a bit more than gigantic set-pieces, which as amazing as they are, still aren't rivaling movie sequences. Devs are forgetting what medium of entertainment they are in, and neglecting gameplay.
Even when we take stories. RPG's for example have a lot of reading, which is a great way to tell a story because you can use your imagination. But many of these story-driven games are telling you the story through dialog and have scripts long enough to be made into like 3 or 4 movies? How much richer would a 4-6 hour game be? For the Dead Space/Uncharted universe, I would imagine that being extremely compelling. The climax coming sooner, the story developing quickly, the big huge boss battles (that are many times the best parts of the game) coming 2-3 hours in instead of 12-13. All this being sold at a much cheaper price-tag, and giving the devs to push out completely different stories and experiment with gameplay on a much more frequent bases. That's what Jaffe is saying, he's simply using Dead Space as an example.
You see now your bias is coming in with your above comment about giving RPG's a pass. Sorry but even though RPG's make up my favourite games i wouldnt want the story to go away in other games like Uncharted, DS and GOW. Also again its just your opinion that Uncharted's gameplay isnt addictive because it is to me and many others. I know you loved Castlevania so do the same rules apply? Its kind of different when its a game you love and others are saying cut the boring bits out and make it cheaper isnt it?
btw--UC3 devs are saying they want to be the premier multiplayer game for PS3, so no doubt they are working hard on gameplay, but, the way there interviews and coverage of the game goes, it seems to not be the focal point atm.
It sounds like you just need to not buy Uncharted 3. Problem solved.
c/:-]
In any case, I do mean I got it for 45 €. It arrived today
PSN ID: VGAficionado
Gattai da!
Like I said, That's not the de facto retail standard, that's just bargain hunting -which I do as well- but it's not the market paradigm. And it's not just me or a handful of people being fussy over the price of a new game - there is a real problem there that affects everyone, from consumer to publisher and developers.
I think 2 things need to happen in the gaming market.
1) Games in the retail channel need to have a variable pricing structure, as new games, not this locked in at 60 dollars (OR WHATEVER the starting price for games is in your country) except when it's a lousy game (Alone In the Dark PS3, but only after it launched for the 360 at full price and tanked) or an oldies-but-goodies compilation (PS2 HD Collections, which I wouldn't pay full price for now anyway) or an unfinished game (GT5 Prologue). There needs to be the freedom or flexibility in the retail space for smaller and cheaper games as well as the million dollar block busters that by all rights justify full price (MGS4, ME2, GT5, LBP2, etc). The problem isn't just me not wanting to shell out cash or hunt for the best price (because I do), it affects the games themselves, you have games that only need to be 5 hour games getting padded with a bunch of shit that doesn't improve it at all, but you gotta put something in there to round it out, right?/sarcasm. A game that would be fun at 5 hours gets padded out to a 10 hour grind fest and it's the worse for it. The PSN store has games with lots of prices, ranging based on their perceived value or content or potential hours you can get out of them (I'm speaking abstractly, please don't split hairs over that, not everyone plays the same games the same amount of time, but the content is there).
2) Retailers who sell used games should have to give some percentage of that to the publishers.
What's eventually going to happen, as much as the industry is trying to delay it in order for everyone to get along, is content producers are going to go all in on Downloads and retail stores are gonna be up the creek. That is if they can't learn to cooperate and give the publishers some kickback of the earnings they rake in on used games. Buy a game at 60 bucks, and the next week you could get 5 bucks back for it if people are returning it rapidly (this happened with BlazBlue: CS), they put it back on the shelf for 35 dollars, 30 dollars in their pocket, Publisher see's none of that. They're gonna pick up their ball and jacks and go home. The day is coming unless there's a shift in the way business is done.
You must love your fellow as yourself
You guys are still misunderstanding his point a bit here. There's no doubt about it that Jaffe probably prefers smaller games over high profile ones, and his statements on DS2 are indeed his own personal opinion. He even said, "I was done with it". I never said that everyone should look at his opinion and have a debate, the reason I quoted him, was because i agreed with his line of thinking, and that is summed up by basically saying, there's a whole lot of boring games out there, because devs aren't as focused on gameplay like they used to be.
I can think the exact opposite of Jaffe's taste when it comes to Dead Space, Uncharted (if he mentioned it) or any other game and still agree with his line of thinking, and that's where I wanted the discussion to focus on. Not so much about practical realities, but how if the model was different there would be a lot more choice for seasoned gamers. If I haven't been playing games since I was 5, I no doubt would not be as critical as I am, but I have been, and the current system is extremely rigid atm, and seems to be dedicated to fairly new gamers or the new growing online user.
Publishers don't have to choose who to cater to, but as Lali illustrated above, price ranges and content can be varied and diversified more to offer more choice, and give devs more flexibility.
My RPG example was just an example, it's not saying every RPG setup is good, I quit a ton of RPG's because they were also boring, It's simply easier to get into a game (for me at least) when you read and come up with your own characters in your head, rather than having a story told through cut-scenes and dialog where it's hit-or-miss. And I loved Castlevania and Uncharted, doesn't mean there wasn't a handful of boring parts with both of those games, as well as some gameplay issues. It's not that I'm that picky either, it's just that i've played tons of experiences already, and gameplay is not really changing a whole lot, and it's something I tend to complain about because that used to be of the utmost importance for devs, that's what I agree most with from Jaffe, and also his point about used games, Lali summed that up nicely as well above me.
It's not so much about the reasons the setup is currently where it's at either, but how it can be changed, and why anyone would want it to.
Last edited by OmniStalgic; 03-22-2011 at 03:56 AM.
“Had the religion of Christianity been preserved according to the ordinances of the Founder, the state and commonwealth of Christendom would have been far more united and happy than they are. Nor can there be a greater proof of its decadence than the fact that the nearer people are to the Church, the head of their religion, the less religious are they.”
"By their Fruits, you will recognize them..."
Gattai da!
I love my full price blockbusters (and I love finding them for a great price on amazonnnn![/oprah]), but you know, it'd be sweet to open up an EGM or Game Informer and see a 'EXCLUSIVE FIRST LOOK' of a game that isn't 18 months away. You know, like back in the Psone days.
You must love your fellow as yourself
I'm so gay for Lali right now...
It's like, he gets me or something
off topic, we need to get a group to play WKC2 when it comes out...I dunno if anyone got into Phantasy Star Online or Monster Hunter, but if it's anywhere close to those titles, it would be great to play with some of you guys here.
Last edited by OmniStalgic; 03-22-2011 at 04:05 AM.
“Had the religion of Christianity been preserved according to the ordinances of the Founder, the state and commonwealth of Christendom would have been far more united and happy than they are. Nor can there be a greater proof of its decadence than the fact that the nearer people are to the Church, the head of their religion, the less religious are they.”
"By their Fruits, you will recognize them..."
Gattai da!
I'm so gay for Lali right now...
It's like, he gets me or something
Dragon of Dojima is Back!
You know im down.
Sapere Aude
Senior Citizen
The problem with that is you really have to blow away ppl in those 4 hours. If Valve are struggling to do it with their Half Life episodes is it going to be easier for everyone else? I doubt it. Again the question has to be raised about expenses for developers. Building new tools are expensive. I know we are approaching this topic from our gamer perspective and i agree with the variable pricing structure but we cant fail to take into account possible reasons why publishers dont more readily adapt to this model.
As for your post further up i can only speak for my country but we do have a lot of variable pricing when it come to games already. EA sports games sell for about $45, Metro 2033 launched for half COD's price point. Movie tie in games are cheaper. MS and Sony launch at around the $50 mark while the super stingy publishers like Square, Capcom and others launch at $60 price tag. Its definitely happening where i am and hopefully it will only get better all over the world.
Luis also makes a good point. When pre orders arent as high as publishers expect im noticing a lot of price reduction, credit and other discounts at retailers like Amazon e.g Homefront. In a sense that already is a variable pricing structure based on cosnumer demand but we just fail to take notice. Unfortunately thats only online. Game stores at the amll need to adapt this model also. Publishers need to work better with retailers in this regard and not just the online retailers.
As for the second hand market it really has become a thorn in my side. For Dragon Age 2 i had to download weapons and packs from 5 different places before i could start playing Dragon Age 2 so im all for retailers giving a percentage to publishers but greed dictates that will never happen so i guess we are stuck with content and online passes for the time being. These exclusive content promotions at different retailers also need to stop. Its becoming very annoying.
Veteran Citizen
DA2 is $40 on Amazon today as the gold box all day item
just FYI
Gattai da!
Valve also juggles several other projects, but we can only guess, being on the outside looking in.But (to me) it seems axiomatic that if it takes x amount of time and y amount of money to produce, balance and polish a 60 dollar retail game, it could easily have been cut in half in it's game length and had 20-30 dollars sliced off the tag, wouldn't it take less time and money to make a shorter game with the same fun factor? The problem with a lot of games is they get repetitive and missions get samey but there's 10 more than you needed because the publisher felt the need to pad it with arbitrary game-lengthening grind quests. And it's like, ok, I wish they'd just made a shorter game and charged me less. But I'm repeating myself at this point so lemme gtfo of this thread. Until some more news anyway.
Teh_Insider
PSN games i've noticed are starting to fill that gap, of offering core experiences for less money. warhawk, wipeout HD, etc.... some great games have been released that could easily had been a core $60 title had they had a bit more content tossed in.
- A LunaticYou wanna destroy the nation, balance the budget.
Senior Citizen
Im not going to post three links just for rumours but the one site ive never hear of is claiming sources are telling them 8 days might be back on again and set for reveal at E3 by Sony London.
PSM3 are claiming they have sources that say 2 new Kojima projects will be announced at E3 and one might be MGS5. Dont get too excited as this could be a reworked MGS4 for NGP or Peace Walker HD.
Finally OPM is claiming that Santa Monica is ramping up for full production by hiring staff for a brand new GOW series.
BONE WITHOUT REGRET!
ANOTHER GOW series?
Oh fuck.
^^^^^^
This post is 99% likely to be sarcastic.
Senior Citizen
If they reboot the gameplay, give us a new setting and new character why not? Note how they say brand new GOW series and not GOW 4.
-
I think many will agree when I say "too soon for another GoW"....I'm still making my way through GoW3 lol....In small doses...Can't take much more GoW...Although by series maybe they are gearing up for a PS4 series or something. I dunno. All I Know is I probably won't buy it unless it's like 4 years away.
EDIT: Stupid tab browsing making me come to thread 4mins late...Yes I agree with AC!D *IF* they do that it'll be cool.
Peace Walker HD is an excitement enough for me! Oh you said *DON'T* get too excited...*holds still trying to hide excitement*
I hope it's true though omgomgomgom!
MGS is a franchise I'm no-where close to having enough of! MOAARR I SAY! MOAAR!!
Senior Citizen
It sounds like GOW is just entering full production coming out of pre production so i wouldnt worry its probably more than a year away i.e March 2012 launch
Also i said dont get too excited about MGS5. Thats the speculation part. Peace Walker is 90% certain in my book juding by the Kojima tweets.
-
Yeh that's al I want! Never played PW. And to get it in HD would be fan-freakin-tastic.Peace Walker is 90% certain in my book juding by the Kojima tweets.
c/:-]
I'd love to know what they have in stock next that could use God of War III's engine. I don't think they spent so much money and so much work on such brilliant tech and only use it once or twice this generation.
Even though other first party games are making use of God of War III's MLAA, which is cool.
PSN ID: VGAficionado
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