Immersion Antagonizing Sony, or Trying to Help out?

[LiquidEagle]

http://www.gamedaily.com/news/?id=11393

Kinda on the long side so I didn't put any quotes in here, but it's a response from Immersion's president Vic Viegas to the interview done with Kaz Hirai recently.

So whom should we believe? Will it really raise the cost like Sony says? The way Kaz put it in the interview, choosing an input feature over a feedback one, made sense to me. It actually made me happy, that Sony's making a decision like that to further our game experience rather than keep us in the same old rumble-land... Cost-wise I can see that really being an issue, but according to Vic Viegas of Immersion, it's not.

I'm not sure who's really on the more admirable side (I can't exactly call either one "right" ...) of this lawsuit, as I don't know if Sony really did steal technology from Immersion or not. I do know that Immersion waited for a long time to file their suit which shows a greater concern for the money they're trying to make rather than the technology they claim they want to protect. Shady, IMO...

Even so, I try not to just ignore everything Immersion says based on those grounds, so I wonder if this guy has a point. He's very good at popping up the second Kaz Hirai/Sony make mention of rumble, saying he can prove them wrong, but Sony would have to work with them, it just seems weird to me. To me it seems like he's pretty much antagonizing them by constantly bringing his company into the picture and saying they have the solution to Sony's problems, but only if Sony pays them lots of money to drop their lawsuit... Maybe it's just me but I don't think I'd like that idea if I were Sony. They've been appealing the ruling in favor of Immersion for a few years now I think, so does it sound like they're very keen on buddying up with Immersion?

I want you guys' opinions

....I sure hope this wasn't posted already....

[cliffbo]

IMO Immersion are worried they are missing out on a big payday and although kaz hirai has a point about the cost i believe the cost he is talking about is more to do with saving sony money than the consumer also i believe that putting rumble back in the controller would be more problematical than beneficial as the battery life would be reduced considerably also the point made about interfering with motion control maybe valid as nintendo's wii uses an external sensor bar to aid the motion control and having it internal to the controller could cause a few problems with the sensitivity of the device.

[masteratt]

All the reasons Sony gave make graet sense to me. I doin't care weather they are lying or not as those "fake reasons" (if they are fake) are good enough to be the truth.
And as one of my favourite saying goes "When a lie is loved, it becomes the truth." so that's waht's going on in my case. I don't want rumble back, I don't care if Sony is giving us BS reasons for having no rumble.

Now to talk about Immersion. Sony I believe shipped over 200Million controllers with the PS brand and I don't know how much Immersion gets but they are dumbasses to get on Sony's bad side.
I think Sony might be in the wrong but they know sooner or later Immersion will say "Oh shit, if we drop this lawsuit, we can make shit loads of money! let's stop fighting Sony and get on their good side"
But tough shit because unless we are in for a big surprise come October event, Immersion missed their chance to go on the good side of Sony. Tough shit morons, Sony and the consumers win

Rumble was great for 10years but let's move on!

[Yo MaMa84]

Immersion should leave Sony alone......i hate bastards like that. Your suing them, but trying to work with them at the same time. Assleaks

[LiquidEagle]

Immersion doesn't "get" anything right now, they're owed $90+ million, which Sony is constantly appealing to try & get rid of.

I dunno about you though, but if I was Immersion and I honestly had created this technology Sony was basically stealing (hypothetical situation, I'm not saying Sony really did steal or not), I'd be extremely peeved that I would then have to grovel at Sony's feet for a chance to work with them on my own technology!

Kaz's explanation was good enough for me too, but I don't like to go in ignorance of the truth of the matter because it's convenient for Sony... That's why I posted this.

Good point Cliff, I think Sony's already giving us a really good deal on the price of the controller (if it's $40 in Japan sold separately, we're getting a fantastic deal), so to add rumble would just make it really hard to sell it at that same price since it probably is already.

[Luis]

Now to talk about Immersion. Sony I believe shipped over 200Million controllers with the PS brand

Actually, they've manufactured around 400 million.

[cliffbo]

i personally don`t think sony are the wrong as they would surely have paid up by now if they were as it`s costing them more than it`s worth to appeal and counter sue so it would have been simpler for them to pay up and forget it.
it would have allowed them the option of using rumble in future products without all have and hassle they have had.

you will have noticed that they have not been sued in any other place in the world other than the usa at least not successfully and the fact that immersion waited such a long time to lay claim to royalties seems suspect to say the least especially as no-one had heard of or seen any immersion patents or products pertaining to gaming before they made their claim against sony the only mention of immersions patents before their claim were for medical equipment i suspect that they acquired the patents then sat on them until they could make a killing as they say and sony was the prey i know this is a conspiracy theory but TMO.

[venomv]

If it would even add few cents to the cost of every control they make (especially the ones packaged in with the consule) then it will add up fast, you have to think if it like that.

[edoshin]

I highly doubt Sony stole anything from Immersion. I can believe that both technologies were developed independently and were similiar enough that the company's patent that was approved first would claim ownership.

Immersion chose to play hardball rather than work to some kind of compromise. Sony refused to cave. Gamers left without rumble.

[EvilTaru]

Immersion needs to shut the smurf up and lower their royalties to a point where Sony can reasonably afford given Sony is already losing money on every PS3, it's all about the bottomline for Sony, but if Immersion keeps being a bunch of assholes, it can very well go beyond just a matter of money, because nobody wants to do business with assholes, and the folks at Immersion right now are a bunch of assholes.

[TheGreenElf]

Business is primarily done between assholes...what do you think Sony is? Anyways I'd say Immersion has done nothing wrong, they want what is owed, and they are working for what fans want. Tilt-sensing...is at this point and will most likely remain nothing more than a stupid gimmick to try and rival Nintendo so the uninformed Gamestop employee or whomever can say "Well this PS3 has motion sensing just like the revolution" or something along those lines, as I always heard them saying stuff equally stupid...

[masteratt]

It's funny how PS3 fans always hear EB employees bad mouth PS3 and praise Wii/X360 and the Wii fans always hear EB employees bad mouth Wii and praise PS3.

This must be a work of a greater power. Just when a Wii fan walks into EB, the employee who hates the Wii stands at the counter but as soon a PS3 fan walks in, they quickly put a PS3 hating employee at the counter!

[Z]

Cliffbo
IMO Immersion are worried they are missing out on a big payday and although kaz hirai has a point about the cost i believe the cost he is talking about is more to do with saving sony money than the consumer also i believe that putting rumble back in the controller would be more problematical than beneficial as the battery life would be reduced considerably also the point made about interfering with motion control maybe valid as nintendo's wii uses an external sensor bar to aid the motion control and having it internal to the controller could cause a few problems with the sensitivity of the device.

exactly.

Evil Taru
Immersion needs to shut the smurf up and lower their royalties to a point where Sony can reasonably afford given Sony is already losing money on every PS3, it's all about the bottomline for Sony, but if Immersion keeps being a bunch of assholes, it can very well go beyond just a matter of money, because nobody wants to do business with assholes, and the folks at Immersion right now are a bunch of assholes.

again, I agree. Sony will either make their own method or go to a different firm to do it then to go back to those people. I honestly do not believe Sony knowingly used a patented method as that is extremely dumb.
it is just a matter of crossing some patent without realizing it thanks to the ever so flawless US patent system. it seems you can't even make a cup without infringing two douzen patents...

what I am grinning about is the feeling that Immersion must be going throw knowing they will miss out on a cash cow like PS3. every mker would want to make something for the next big thing, and PS3's future certainly looks very bright indeed. you can feel how desperate they are running polls, making appearences on sites, etc. so sad. they should have gone with dignity. it is so sad that it is almost pathetic.

they obviously don't know the the f*** their messing with.

[Carlos]

what I am grinning about is the feeling that Immersion must be going throw knowing they will miss out on a cash cow like PS3. every mker would want to make something for the next big thing, and PS3's future certainly looks very bright indeed. you can feel how desperate they are running polls, making appearences on sites, etc. so sad. they should have gone with dignity. it is so sad that it is almost pathetic.

Yep, I agree.

I think they would have gone in a better position, if they had just shut their mouths, let go of the lawsuit, and work with them on making the tilt sensoring chip, and Sony will wake up, and pay them in TIME.

[Pluto]

Anything to keep their names in gaming news, it seems.

If Sony really wanted to implement rumble, it would've been done already. See ya later, Immersion.

And I really don't appreciate how they seem to be representing "the voice of gamers" to justify their need for profits. Tsk, tsk.

[Domination]

http://www.gamedaily.com/news/?id=11393

Kinda on the long side so I didn't put any quotes in here, but it's a response from Immersion's president Vic Viegas to the interview done with Kaz Hirai recently.

So whom should we believe? Will it really raise the cost like Sony says? The way Kaz put it in the interview, choosing an input feature over a feedback one, made sense to me. It actually made me happy, that Sony's making a decision like that to further our game experience rather than keep us in the same old rumble-land... Cost-wise I can see that really being an issue, but according to Vic Viegas of Immersion, it's not.

I'm not sure who's really on the more admirable side (I can't exactly call either one "right" ...) of this lawsuit, as I don't know if Sony really did steal technology from Immersion or not. I do know that Immersion waited for a long time to file their suit which shows a greater concern for the money they're trying to make rather than the technology they claim they want to protect. Shady, IMO...

Even so, I try not to just ignore everything Immersion says based on those grounds, so I wonder if this guy has a point. He's very good at popping up the second Kaz Hirai/Sony make mention of rumble, saying he can prove them wrong, but Sony would have to work with them, it just seems weird to me. To me it seems like he's pretty much antagonizing them by constantly bringing his company into the picture and saying they have the solution to Sony's problems, but only if Sony pays them lots of money to drop their lawsuit... Maybe it's just me but I don't think I'd like that idea if I were Sony. They've been appealing the ruling in favor of Immersion for a few years now I think, so does it sound like they're very keen on buddying up with Immersion?

I want you guys' opinions

....I sure hope this wasn't posted already....

As much as I would like to have rumble back, I can only see this as a desperate cry coming from Immersion. Every time they do this, they put themselves more and more at Sony's mercy, and as a result, those in power knowing this will only make you eat from their hand while prolonging the process at the very sametime. Not good, Immersion...

By Sony being a hardware/electronics supplier, I can easily see them coming up with their own solution.

Business is primarily done between assholes...what do you think Sony is? Anyways I'd say Immersion has done nothing wrong, they want what is owed, and they are working for what fans want. Tilt-sensing...is at this point and will most likely remain nothing more than a stupid gimmick to try and rival Nintendo so the uninformed Gamestop employee or whomever can say "Well this PS3 has motion sensing just like the revolution" or something along those lines, as I always heard them saying stuff equally stupid...

You're kidding, right? I mean, if both consoles support the feature, with Nintendo in an even greater position since the Wii-mote is all the next Nintendo console revolves around compared to the other competitors - especially Sony, wouldn't this make the Wii-mote, or the system as a whole, just a gimmick? If not, then I believe you could be contradicting yourself in this case.

IMO, I don't think motion sensitive controllers are a gimmick at all because it allows developers to do things that weren't as possible before. But if they are gimmicks, as you say, then this would make the analogue sticks a gimmick, too since it serves nothing more than an alternative solution to the D-pad - really no different from what tilt does for the both of 'em.

[LiquidEagle]

I see a lot of people are seeing this as a cry from Immersion for a partnership with Sony or something along those lines, but could it also be that Immersion is taking more of the offensive here? The lawsuit so far has gone in their favor despite a few appeals, so I imagine they're pretty confident in their position... Don't you think they're kind of trying to make Sony look more like liars in that they come up to disprove/try to disprove any major comment Sony makes on rumble/tilt compatibility? That's why I see them more at odds with Sony and their comments feel more bitter than they are begging for a partnership with Sony... maybe that's just me though.

GreenElf, maybe you should be glad they have anything at all to say about next-gen . I've seen many employees (one of which I work with) who honestly doesn't know anything about the next-gen consoles, so I have to drop what I'm doing to take the customer and explain the differences and features of a console. Fortunately I didn't tell anybody that the Wii can play DVD movies before I found out it doesn't . Anyways, misinformation is abound... yet somehow I've never heard anymisinformation really slam the 360 yet! *sigh* hehe

Anyways, let's forget here that Sony is the leader of the market and see this at its core where there are two companies butting heads over technology...do you think things would go the same way or do you think Immersion truly is just a company of jerks out to get money? I'm a big Sony fan and a loyal supporter of Sony, but I don't want to risk being blind to the facts that Sony may have indeed stolen technology from Immersion... Does anybody know where I can find an article or something on Sony's stance in the issue?

[vdo]

I was wondering why Nintendo, with having some sort of rumble in it's Wiimote was not (at least anywhere that I could find) being harassed by Immersion. IIRC, there was a recent article where Immersion said that they have not yet got around to seeing if the Wiimote violated their patents.

And if Nintendo was thinking they got around the patents, Immersions take on potential controller developers is this:

With 500 different patents, would-be manufacturers of force-feedback peripherals had best check with Immersion before getting too deep into product development. Schaffer said that it wouldn't be "absolutely impossible for anyone to design around every single one of our patents, but it's probably pretty difficult."

source:
next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2729&Ite mid=32

I thought that maybe Immersion was waiting till a millions of Wii's were sold and then go after them, but then came across an older article - I don't know if people have seen this or remember it - but it talks again about how Immersion "has not yet gotten around to it" with even Nintendos older controllers way back then. Looking at the article it makes me wonder if they will ever get around to it.

Some key points are:

why not include Nintendo, especially given the fact that Nintendo claims the feedback technology employed in all modern games controllers is its own?

US Immersion Corp CEO Victor Viegas:
“We never analysed Nintendo products.” Is the more-than surprising answer offered. “There is, I believe, a difference in the technologies used but we never investigated those of Nintendo.”

...

Then on July 25, 2003, Immersion contemporaneously executed a series of agreements with Microsoft that:

1. Settled Immersion’s lawsuit against Microsoft
2. Granted Microsoft a worldwide royalty-free, irrevocable license to Immersion’s portfolio with Microsoft splashing out around $6 million on a 10% stake in Immersion
3. Provided Microsoft with sublicense rights to pursue certain license arrangements directly with third parties including Sony Computer Entertainment which, if consummated, would result in payments to Immersion.

At this point, Microsoft decided to play its hand. It relented to Immersion’s assurances that technologies employed within the Xbox controller, hardware and related software infringed on established patents...In doing this, Microsoft effectively made it’s settlement with Immersion a test case, a case that would then be used against Sony. What’s more, it put itself in a position to demand payments from Sony on all PlayStation hardware, peripherals and software sold, on an ongoing basis. This weeks ruling saw Microsoft net around $8 million. The shares in Immersion have also jumped, with a return of around $6 million.

It seems beyond the realms of possibility that Microsoft didn’t have this roadmap into the very fabric of the PlayStation business model mapped-out from the start. When this was put to Viegas he simply said, “I cannot argue with the logic in what you say. Microsoft took full advantage of the opportunity offered to it and was fair in its dealings with us throughout.”

source: news.spong.com/article/8511

So this could be why Nintendo is being spared. I think MS purposely settled to establish legal precedence to be used against Sony in court. I mean you have the CEO of Immersion agreeing with it. So this is not just Sony vs Immersion. MS is also able to get money from Sony over this (and has as can be seen in the article), and so Sony is playing hardball with them on this.

[Z]

Business is primarily done between assholes...what do you think Sony is?

in a Fortune poll a while back, they asked companies and business firms what were the best companies to deal with. they picked the top five best companies. Coca-cola got first place. Sony got second or third place (I don't remember which was it exactly, but I remember being surprised).
read all the dev comments about doing business with Sony. read on why Factor 5 went with Sony. find out why Insomniac made everygame in their history on a Sony platform. tell me how come Ninja Theory wanted Sony after seeing a number of alternatives. and if you think it is all about the money, they should all have went to MS.
do you know how many devs took their projects to PS3 while the system isn't even out yet? do you know why Sony is the leader in the console space? do you know why they have great products and great partnerships worldwide?

let me just tell you one thing: few companies in the world are as visionary and as dedicated as Sony.

[LiquidEagle]

Do you have a link for that poll, Z? I'd love to read it