Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots

[LiquidEagle]

For clarification of Liquid in Ocelot's arm.... ***POSSIBLE SPOILER AHEAD****




Ocelot is the son of The Sorrow and The Joy (The Boss), thus he has some abilities as a medium to the dead just like the Sorrow did. That's why Liquid is still around through his arm. With MGS2, Kojima also wanted to more or less destroy MGS1. He wanted to make it look more insignificant compared to the scope of MGS2, and he got a lot of good feedback on the plot twists in MGS1, so he included more. As for Vamp's return...in case some of you didn't know:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../Camera002.jpg

That's from the Document of MGS2 where you can move the camera around during the real-time polygon demos, and Vamp is in the background watching Snake & Raiden. I originally took this picture to show to Kojima & Shinkawa when I met them at an in-store signing last November, but I couldn't get it printed in time
Anyways, I figured some people didn't know *why* he was coming back...there's youre reason.

[dantruon]

I just have one question, what kind of graphic detail (art, polygon wise) will MGS4 achieved which i think will be the last game of the series (maybe the best as well) and thus Koijma will give it everything he got to make the ps3 work a little harder.

[Z]

MGS4 ...which i think will be the last game of the series

why would it be the last game? who is stupid enough to kill such a hige, money rolling, franchise? MGS is here to stay no matter what Kojima says.

about MGS2; like any other game, it isn't perfect. I already said that Kojima had a really bad time for the Raiden stunt. I think he was high when he came up with it. I was also very dissapointef with the Ninja pathetic move. that was an extremely low blow. as the biggest fan of Cyborg Ninja, I take that personally. he was one of the biggest moments I was waiting for in the game. if only I knew...

having said that the game still had the best cast in nearly any game. just like MGS1 did. about MGS3, I already said that Volgan and The Boss were the only two characters that really count. though the rest are named after so called 'emotions' they never show any. what do you know about any one of them? what is there to remember about them? why are they doing what they are doing? etc. etc. and when one dies, he keeps repeating his name till he blows up like an old fire cracker. what is that? am I supposed to feel any 'emotion' from that? will gamers years from now talk about any of them?

also, Ocelot is one huge character. do you realize he is the only enemy from MGS1and MGS2 that wasn't killed, defeated or captured?
also the arm trick was pure genuis. that opens a whole new dimention. clearly he hasn't got full control over it. that all bring immediate quaestions as why take the whole arm and not just the hand? who put it in him? why specifically chose Liquid's arm? what kind of 'struggle' will we see with that arm against Ocelot's will? and so forth.
of course, there are stupid characters in MGS2, namely Olga and the bomb guy. I immedaitely hated Olga because the first thing she said was :"I was borrrrn in the battle feild". oh, P.L.E.A.S.E sister! ther is only one Sniper Wolf! you also don't say big words at the beginning. these are usually ending lines so we can feel sorry (again, 'emotion') at after the enemy dies. the bomb guy didn't have much for us to go on.

in MGS3, I wae really hoping to be able to play as The Boss. now that was one hella' of character!

finally, it all comes down to opinion. for me, MGS2 had the most memorable moments followed by MGS1 then MGS3. depite how any played, I am talking about pure story, plot, twists, and characters.

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6 days to D-day!

[Newboi]

The one thing I think that made alot of the characters in MGS3 seem less impressive was the voice acting.

Usually, the American voice acting for the MGS games received higher praise than their Japanese counterparts, especially to Kojima who released the great (but hard to find) MGS: Integral which gave the Japanese gamers a chance to hear the American voice acting, but this time around the Japanese voice acting for the characters completely outdid the American voice actors.

The Boss actually sounded her age, Ocelot didn't sound like a complete wuss, Volgin sounded so much more menacing, and the overall voice acting was just better.

I hope Kojima and his team spend alittle more time picking better voice actors for the game characters (of course I am in no way talking about David Haytar who is stillf fantastic).

:Edit: Z I completely agree with you. MS2's story was absolutly amazing and is the best in my opinion.

[Red_Eyes]

why would it be the last game? who is stupid enough to kill such a hige, money rolling, franchise? MGS is here to stay no matter what Kojima says.

about MGS2; like any other game, it isn't perfect. I already said that Kojima had a really bad time for the Raiden stunt. I think he was high when he came up with it. I was also very dissapointef with the Ninja pathetic move. that was an extremely low blow. as the biggest fan of Cyborg Ninja, I take that personally. he was one of the biggest moments I was waiting for in the game. if only I knew...

having said that the game still had the best cast in nearly any game. just like MGS1 did. about MGS3, I already said that Volgan and The Boss were the only two characters that really count. though the rest are named after so called 'emotions' they never show any. what do you know about any one of them? what is there to remember about them? why are they doing what they are doing? etc. etc. and when one dies, he keeps repeating his name till he blows up like an old fire cracker. what is that? am I supposed to feel any 'emotion' from that? will gamers years from now talk about any of them?

also, Ocelot is one huge character. do you realize he is the only enemy from MGS1and MGS2 that wasn't killed, defeated or captured?
also the arm trick was pure genuis. that opens a whole new dimention. clearly he hasn't got full control over it. that all bring immediate quaestions as why take the whole arm and not just the hand? who put it in him? why specifically chose Liquid's arm? what kind of 'struggle' will we see with that arm against Ocelot's will? and so forth.
of course, there are stupid characters in MGS2, namely Olga and the bomb guy. I immedaitely hated Olga because the first thing she said was :"I was borrrrn in the battle feild". oh, P.L.E.A.S.E sister! ther is only one Sniper Wolf! you also don't say big words at the beginning. these are usually ending lines so we can feel sorry (again, 'emotion') at after the enemy dies. the bomb guy didn't have much for us to go on.

in MGS3, I wae really hoping to be able to play as The Boss. now that was one hella' of character!

finally, it all comes down to opinion. for me, MGS2 had the most memorable moments followed by MGS1 then MGS3. depite how any played, I am talking about pure story, plot, twists, and characters.

-
6 days to D-day!

Nope. MGS4 will not be the last in the series. MSG4 will start a new trilogy. Go back and watch the E3 teaser. The letters MGS were clearly made to look like 4, 5 and 6 (not in that order). MSG4 will start the first part of a new trilogy, and I for one, am happy about that.

[Red_Eyes]

I beg to differ.

The Cobra unit in MGS3 were about emotions like when The Boss told Volgan that Snake still has not brought an emotion into battle.That is why the character were Pain,Fear,Fury,Sorrow.

Then we look at MGS1 and we have a cast of characters that are based on animals.These kinds of classification of the enemy give the impression of a unit so to say where as if you look at MGS2 you see enemy that you really dont care about but are just there.

Then the MGS2 story line is what really killed it though.Liquid Snakes arm on Ocelot?What?And he talkes through him?Im sorry but that alone is enough to put that game below the other two.Then there i the cyborg ninja kind of rip off that was happeneing i assume to pull in interst from MGS1 but that kind of backfired on me.Last and not least the Raiden switch.

I just think Hideo either had a good amount of pressure put on by himself to create a better game than MGS1 on a brand new system for the PS2 and it seemed nothing really has the WOW effecct that MGS1 and 3 brought.

Hmmm... I guess you just didn't understand the reason behind the fake cyborg ninja and raiden, and all those other stuff you called "stupid". Like you, many people do not understand the story behind MGS2, so they just automatically critize it.

[Maya 5.0]

Hmmm... I guess you just didn't understand the reason behind the fake cyborg ninja and raiden, and all those other stuff you called "stupid". Like you, many people do not understand the story behind MGS2, so they just automatically critize it.

Or maybe you one of those that have to find anything to defend the game you like but it certainly was not in the same class as MGS1 which is the best so far of the series hands down.

[Illmatic]

Or maybe you one of those that have to find anything to defend the game you like but it certainly was not in the same class as MGS1 which is the best so far of the series hands down.

As you know everyone has their own opinion. Mine, well, i LOVE all 3, but the pick of the bunch for me would have to be MG3, damn, the ending even nearly brought a tear to my eye

[L3XO]

i hope that no.4 will be like mgs1. number 1 ruled, the atmosphere was so realistic, music was great and the environments were really brilliant, after playing mgs2 and 3 im a bit worriied about how 4 will come out.

to be honest, i'd rather play a remake of mgs1 on the ps3 than a new mgs if its gonna turn out crappy like 2 and 3 (no offence), as long as its a good remake, and not a cheap one like TT.

[Danji]

Okay, the guy with the photo of vamp, rock on. That's as substantial a plot point as the MGS document thing where...wom

SPOILERS











they state in the script that Colonel is in fact JFK! I seriously believe that if you fight some horrid Mecha-JFK in MGS 4 it will be the best game ever!




unspoiler'd...ded


Other than that, MGS2 wasn't bad. The characters in that were named after their strongest feature that you remembered them by. Vamp was a fucking vampire, Fortune was the most unfortunate person in the whole thing and most everyone else had real names.

I, myself, believe MGS3 is the best in the series and I concur with the previous person. The ending came very close to making me cry but I was around my bud when I saw it so I just sniffled a lot. So very sad..

Also, very interesting theory about Ocelot's arm. If it were true then it would prove that Kojima and his team are incredibly good at explaining things and providing inter-game connections that are both subtle and substantial.

This thread is the best MGS thread I've ever read.

[GUNDAMSEED]

1 was good but 3 best mgs game to me . it has so much to do . Plus i love how you could go underwater and shoot people i hope they have more of that in MGS4. CQC also kick alot of ass need more of that .

[Z]

the pick of the bunch for me would have to be MG3, damn, the ending even nearly brought a tear to my eye

nearly? you monster! I cried like a baby girl who lost her...what ever baby girls play with.

The ending came very close to making me cry but I was around my bud when I saw it so I just sniffled a lot. So very sad..

that is why I never go deep in serious games unless I am perfectly alone! I advice you do the same.

kudos to the Vamp pick. I was going to come back and add post that he does make a showing at the very end. that is to prove he isn't dead. thanks for the pic! I didn't know where to start looking for it.

Vamp was a fucking vampire

we think that he was called Vamp because he drinks blood and Vamp is short for Vampire but actually no. Raiden asked Snake if Vamp was from Vamprie and he said no. he gave an explanation about the naem. there is also an explanation why he drinks blood. I won't use any spoiler alerts for MGS2 because if you haven't played it by now, you deserve to get it spoiled! Vamp was trapped when his hous crumbled on him and his family (do not know the reason for the house falling) he was trapped for days. the only think that kept him alive was his family's blood (father and mother). he drank, licked and sucked their dripping blood near him till he was found and saved. that is why he developed a taste for blood.

another character that had to be the badass of them all. possibly the strongest character in all of MGS; Solidus! that freak took out three Metal Gear Rays in under 10 seconds. he even called them 'worthless toys!'! this is when you ans a player, had a hard time with a bazooka taking one of them out! noe THAT was a crazy design. not to mention his death was the most touching end of all time. this actually competes not only in the gaming world, but even in movies and novels. he seriously made a dramatic end. I support his idials, and agree with his reasons. if I only had a choice I wouldn't fight him. I actually didn't even move when I had to fight him at the end and just stood there to be killed. I was 'forced' to fight him for the story to go on. damn Patriots and all the sissies that follow them!! (except for Shalahsaska of course, he is too good to waste).

we also need to be a bit realistic here, this is still a 'game' after all, so you needn't dwell to much on it. for instance, how fortune turned out to be fortunate in the end where it really counted- which was another great moment.

maybe you one of those that have to find anything to defend the game you like

it really comes down to how you view things. you see Liquid's arm in Ocelot as plain dumb, where I see it as pure genius and adds much more depth in potential plot twists. I see Ocelot in MGS3 as a complete idiot, some my see him as cool or something.

it all comes down to opinion. games are certainly art. you can look at a painting with only one stripe on a white sheet. you may look at it as nothing but garbage, some may pay thousands to buy it and can go on and on explaining its 'artistic' meanings and simbols.
for me, MGS2 was one of the top games this whole generation, and will ever be kept as one fo the gaming gems of all time.

now, no matter what our opinions are about bast MGS games, it wouldn't really matter since a new eneration will begin. insane graphics, new mechanics, new plot, new characters, etc. will make MGS4 a whole new entry. just like the difference between MGS1, 2 and three.

it will, without a doubt, literally 'own' any and all next gen offerings. and guess what, it is- using MS's favorite words' 'exclusive' to PS3.


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6 days to D-day!

[Danji]

At what point did Snake say that? I loved Vamp (acted by Phil Lamar) and don't recall anything about that.

[Illmatic]

Wow, i just stumbled across this in the Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Gear#Series

I never knew they had stuff like this in there.

If you want to read up or just refresh your memory on everything MGS related check it out, it's very informative.

And Danji, Z was correct about Vamps history you can check it out there also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vamp_%28character%29

[julps31]

Wow, i just stumbled across this in the Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Gear#Series

I never knew they had stuff like this in there.

If you want to read up or just refresh your memory on everything MGS related check it out, it's very informative.

And Danji, Z was correct about Vamps history you can check it out there also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vamp_%28character%29

Yeah man. Wikipedia has a lotta good stuff like that. Games, consolses, celebritys, ect. *Back to the subject at hand* Man TGS and MGS. That has a nice ring to it lol. I can't wait to see what Kojima can do with the PS3..*drools* lol. And its even more exciting to know that the actual game will most likely look better then what they have at the show. Hmm...detailed ski mask textures...beautifal partical effects...what can I say. I can't wait man.

[LiquidEagle]

Vamp was actually in a church with his family in Romania when terrorists bombed it, causing the building to collapse and Vamp was impaled by a crucifix. He had to survive by drinking the blood of the people who were in there, including the bodies of his parents. That's why he says, "I've already died once, my Queen." when he has that close call and Fortune starts "hamming it up."

Z, I have to completely agree with you on Solidus's death. His fall from Federal Hall in slow-motion is still the single most beautiful and emotion-laden shot to date. Although I liked the Boss a lot more, and her death itself was very very sad, it didn't have a shot like that. What I personally loved about the Boss's death was that the player had to pull the trigger. After you realize most of what she was about, and Snake has this incredible connection to her, you have to be the one to kill her. So sad...

Personally I'd say that MGS3 is my favorite. It has the most depth in the gameplay, The Boss is probably the single coolest character I've ever seen in a video game (by FAR the best female character ever, compared to what most developers put in their game...bleeech), and has a polish to it comparable to MGS1. MGS2, as amazing as it is, was rushed, especially towards the end. Now it doesn't show nearly as much as it does in other games, but anybody who followed the making of that game knows that it was rushed -- Kojima literally got sick because of all the stress to meet the deadline.

For that guy who asked where that conversation is about Vamp, you need to call Pliskin some time after your Vamp encounter and he'll go off about it. You find out that he had a relationship with both Fortune & her father (Cmdr. Dolph), and all sorts of wild stuff.

Lastly, I was too tired to cry at the end of MGS3! I stayed up all night before it came out (it was like Christmas Eve for me), and I got the game as soon as EB opened, at 10, ran back home, and played it for 16 hours straight with one bathroom/popcorn break until 2 AM the next day. I wanted so badly to find out what happens and what was going on with the Patriots that I refused to stop playing. You'd better believe I was losing some sanity towards the end there! Any time I listen to the soundtrack though, or play through it again, I have so much sadness attached to the Boss. I don't know how else to describe it... Between Snake's personal connection to her, and the position she's forced into (you'll know more about that if you've beaten the game), and the way she handles things....she's just too cool

Oh yeah...MGS4.... can't wait!!!

[Z]

about Vamp:
He is incredibly fast, and one of his more impressive tricks is reading an opponents muscle movements to predict where and when they will fire. Using this information, he is capable of avoiding entire clips of assault rifle fire.

now that is some crazy shi**! who comes up with these things?!
and I never say any indication he was gay. yeah, it was mentioned a couple of times he was along with Fortune's father, but there is nothing from the game that points to this. he sure showed emotions towards Fortune (hey, who wouldn't!) but he was never in the same scene with her father. also, I just do not want to accept this. Vamp is one insane bad ass crazy guy, I don't want to ruing it thinking he is...aah, I don't want to even say it!

and yeah, LiquidEagle, The Boss's end was very touchy. especially when you find out her 'true' purpose after she dies. the cold hard irony is that you (the player) learn the truth at the same time Snake is recieving a patriotic medal from the President. very deep stuff here people.

the ending of The Boss and the drama that happens at the scene (without spoiling it for those who haven't played it yet, for some reason) is one of the things why I absolutely adore Japanese and other far easters cultures and imaginaton over the rest of the world. you will never see anything even close to that in Hollywood in a hundred years! the magnificent touches, imagination and novelty seen in Japanese anime and movies are way up there. the movie Casshern had extremely deep moments like these. along with anime like Vampire Hunter D: Blood Lust and Grave of the Fireflies (which is considered one of the saddest productions ever made of all kinds).

about Solidus; that ending deserves a prize really. can you see the cold hard brutal reality? the day of his death? the place of his death? struggling to stand, raising his hand and reaching for the dream...
the sound of his last breaths will for ever be ingraved in my memory. it is enough to remeber that sound to make me feel extremely emotional.
to add, Solidus was 'the perfect snake'. Liquid hated Solid because he though he himself was the testing grounds for Solid. at the end, he thought HE was the perfect soldier and Solid was the testing garbage. in fact, both were tests. Solidus was the result of these tests. he is complete in everyway. there is also a harsh irony here about him losing an eye macking him with an eyepatch look similar to Big Boss, the original soldier. Solidus was even the President of the United Stats. he was the one Ocelot was calling at the end of MGS1 and was referring to him as 'Mr.President'.

when I think about it, Big Boss, Liquid and Snake were all stupid. now bare with me here; Solid and Big Boss were captured, tortured, hurt, beaten, etc. they showed absolutely nothing speacial or notible at all. Liquid is the same. he didn't do anything crazy like the rest of his wild group. why was he even their boss? Boss was kicking Big Boss's butt with one hand behind her back. Volgan beat the crap out of him, and he didn't even get even at the end. he just kept shooting him from as far as he can.

now the real super agent stuff that is admireable and what is suitable for the main character is what was shown in the Cube's version called Twin Snakes. that was a REAL special forces agent that beat the crap out of every body. heck, he even beat Cyborg Ninja in hand-to-hand combat!

talking purely about game play, of course 3 was the best. I am talking about story and novelty.

I really hope that despite all the technical wonders, MGS4 will have these memorable moments. I feel it would be hard imagining such deeper meanings and moments than the ones already shown.

finally, I would really like to point out Shinkawa's unbelieveable talent in mecha design. did you know he was the same person responsible for the insane ZOE mechas? he has single handedly designed all the mechas in ZOE1&2! MGRay was also very good. this guy sure has talent. truck loads of it!

there is only one thing I can say at the end of all this. I think it was said better by Sony:
"Live in your world. Play in ours."
that really should have been: "rot in your world. Live in ours!"

[LiquidEagle]

Liquid kinda did give into torture. His bio says that he fought for the UK in the Gulf War but was taken prisoner in Iraq where he disappeared, most likely defecting.

And I'm pretty sure Liquid and Solidus will always be inferior to Solid Snake, as long as they let themselves be controlled by their genes ;-).

And Shinkawa's absolutely incredible. There isn't a time when I don't have a wallpaper with one of his masterpieces on my desktop. I literally changed desktops about 7 times in less than five minutes because each new official MGS3 wallpaper I saw was cooler than the last! One of my absolute most prized possession is my limited edition Snake Eater poster with both Hideo Kojima & Yoji Shinkawa's signatures. They also signed my MGS3 art book as well, the one that comes with the limited edition Snake Eater strategy guide.

Back on topic for MGS4, I've always expected it to be real-time...Kojima & crew abandoned CG back in about '97 when they realized it just wasn't jiving with Metal Gear Solid on PSOne. I never expected them to go back, and they've never given any indication that they would. That said, I'm incredibly excited for next week. I really don't know what to expect, but I've never been let down before, and if there's any team that can get the absolute most out of a system like PS3, I got all my money on KCEJ West/Kojima Productions.

***EDIT***
I forgot to mention this, but I think it's very much worth noting that MGS4's codirector is the same director from Zone of the Enders 2. This is extremely good news, and if you're unfamiliar with ZOE2 then I HIGHLY recommend you play it, NOW. Such an amazing, incredible, beautiful...just...GO PLAY IT!!

[Illmatic]

I forgot to mention this, but I think it's very much worth noting that MGS4's codirector is the same director from Zone of the Enders 2. This is extremely good news, and if you're unfamiliar with ZOE2 then I HIGHLY recommend you play it, NOW. Such an amazing, incredible, beautiful...just...GO PLAY IT!!

Yep, with Yoji, Kojima and the Z.O.E 2 director Mr Murata onboard, we're all going to be in for something amazing


EDIT: Since it hasn't been posted in this thread i might aswell

Taken from the PSM article in the some new info on gamelineup and PS3 itself thread.

MGS 4 Becomes a War Zone

One source has described the game to PSM as "a cross between Rambo and Black Hawk Down," with Solid Snake plunged into the middle of a high-intesntiy urban war zone where artillery is taking out cover all aroudn him and AI controlled "sidekicks" fight alongside him as if they were actual human-controlled characters. The new 3D camera will paly a big role in surviving the fight quarters and constantly changing cover.

For some reason i think this is true, it sounds very interesting. So he's not going to be alone? maybe a little Socom mixed in

[Z]

who didn't play ZOE2? anyone who didn't play it must get the death penalty!
OFF with their HEADS!

another thing exciting about MGS4 is Kojma specifically mentiones it is all real time. though everyone expects this, I think he gives kind of a warning and raises some hype giving the impression it will look damn good it will be mistaken for prerendered CG.


PS. I really love to continue this hot topic with you fellas, but I need to go away for a couple of days at the least. see you soon!