60 fps or 30 fps? (preemptive strike)

**cliffbo** · 05-23-2006, 04:57 PM

the war is heating up and the battle is raging on all fronts. as each new fact washes through the internet many apologists look to ever more oblique factors to dismis as unnecessary. 'Don't need Blu-ray, Don't need high definition... etc..' so whats the next denial on the list? Having watched a myriad of vids at E3 for all three consoles its safe to say that framerate will be the next. almost every 360 games seemed to judder on framerate, even the much anticipated GoW and Too Human. so do we need 60 frames a second? HELL YES!! this to me is going to be the main bone of contention come launch day. its becoming increasingly obvious that the PS3 can achieve more on screen at 60fps, but this is something that a still can never demonstrate, so expect a lot of comparisons of stills in the coming two years. keep your eye on bump mapping too. tell it as it is PS3 fans and don't let the opposition pull the wool over your eyes.

**KiLLA2006** · 05-23-2006, 05:05 PM

after being exposed to 60 fps in a couple of classes, i really notice when a game or a video drops to 30 fps halo 3 was noticeable chugging when the covenant dropship came onscreen... disappointing, but what can you do eh?

**LiquidEagle** · 05-23-2006, 05:08 PM

Haha nice inspirational speech

I heard that MGS4 runs at 30 fps...I have no way to verify that since 1UP said it and the guy didn't sound very technically apt, but that's kinda disappointing to hear. 60 FPS is certainly ideal for any game. I made a thread awhile back about whether or not framerate will ever stop being an issue though, and the general concensus was that as long as devs are pushing hardware like they should, we'll always have to worry about framerate drops

Consider it a casualty of war, but it's still good to have....

**cliffbo** · 05-23-2006, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by KiLLA2006

after being exposed to 60 fps in a couple of classes, i really notice when a game or a video drops to 30 fps halo 3 was noticeable chugging when the covenant dropship came onscreen... disappointing, but what can you do eh?

what can we do? we can prevent devs from copping out by complaining about it on forums such as this. remember a lot of people in the industry trawl though sights like E-mpire for public opinion. so if your reading this devs 60fps please.

**cpiasminc** · 05-23-2006, 05:52 PM

I'd like to know why people seem to think it's as simple as a yes or no question to implement.

**cliffbo** · 05-23-2006, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by cpiasminc

I'd like to know why people seem to think it's as simple as a yes or no question to implement.

perhaps you could explain the complications to us mere mortals Cp. lol

**section** · 05-23-2006, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Cpi

I'd like to know why people seem to think it's as simple as a yes or no question to implement.

Because normal person doesn't want to admit limitations in any nextgen system. It's easier to admit that there are indeed limited resources in your hands if you have worked with any computational technology and system.

Finding the sort of golden section in the complexity of any computer application is even today as important as it was many dozens of years ago.

**cliffbo** · 05-23-2006, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by sct-i/on

Because normal person doesn't want to admit limitations in any nextgen system.

the point of this thread +rep. lets keep this forum Sony

mods can't you change the rep system a bit, i have to spread them around it says again!!!!! i haven't repped sct in ages.

**section** · 05-23-2006, 06:15 PM

Cliff, I'm happy with just the idea of your agreement, no need for reputation

It's just that I'm working on a programming/computer systems field myself so I know something about that particular side of life.

And isn't my new avatar just adorable?

***Luis*** · 05-23-2006, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by LiquidEagle

I heard that MGS4 runs at 30 fps...I have no way to verify that since 1UP said it and the guy didn't sound very technically apt, but that's kinda disappointing to hear.

Not only I don't consider 1UP's staff reliable anymore regading anything Playstation, but I'm not sure whether MGS4's frame rate is final just yet, although taking into account the slowdowns in the latest real time trailer, even though it's still an early build, they're probably aiming for 30fps even though I'd swear it ran at 60fps sometimes (can't tell for sure because the available videos are quite poorly encoded).

Anyway, I hope this doesn't become a "The human eye can't tell the difference between 30 and 60" thread or a "J. Allard said he doesn't need a frame rate greater than movies', so nobody else wants more than that" thread.

**cliffbo** · 05-23-2006, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by sct-i/on

Cliff, I'm happy with just the idea of your agreement, no need for reputation

It's just that I'm working on a programming/computer systems field myself so I know something about that particular side of life.

And isn't my new avatar just adorable?

its a million miles from mine though lol

**section** · 05-23-2006, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by Cliff

its a million miles from mine though lol

Life or avatar?

Gerbil vs. Bum. You choose which is which :troutslap

**cliffbo** · 05-23-2006, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by VG Aficionado

Anyway, I hope this doesn't become a "The human eye can't tell the difference between 30 and 60" thread or a "J. Allard said he doesn't need a frame rate greater than movies', so nobody else wants more than that" thread.

oh but it will VG, especially if 360 fans come on board or those that pretend to be unbiased (and we all know who they are)

**cliffbo** · 05-23-2006, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by sct-i/on

Life or avatar?

Gerbil vs. Bum. You choose which is which :troutslap

never put gerbil and bums in the same sentence! you never know how many homophobics may read it lol

***Smokey*** · 05-23-2006, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by cliffbo

never put gerbil and bums in the same sentence! you never know how many homophobics may read it lol

lol

**cliffbo** · 05-23-2006, 07:19 PM

film shows images at about 25fps and so thats the argument MS will use, but its a completely different thing from 60fps on consoles.

Ah, but what of motion blur?

When shooting film (is it that movie theaters are 24fps and television (59.96/2) fps?) at some N frames per second, each exposure captures all the positions the objects in view occupied during that exposure's 1/N second. For stationary objects, that doesn't mean anything interesting, but for objects in motion, it means they'll blur or streak in the film, so to speak.

When rendering scenes, that doesn't happen (on any hardware I can afford, anyway). The individual frames of a real-time computer rendered image will calculate and display where the objects are at one infinitely thin slice in time. Think of it as the difference between living in a constantly lit world and one that's lit by a strobe light, and you've got the basic idea.

Increasing FPS, in turn, ups the frequency of that strobe light. 24 or 30fps is fine for motion-blurred film images, but it takes more fps to compensate for the discrete timeslices of a rendered image.

***LaLiLuLeLo*** · 05-23-2006, 07:26 PM

60fps is best in games because it has to be responsive to the input of the user. A video can be passable at 15 fps, disney animations run at 30, the average is 24 (most anime clocks in at that), but games are a different story. 30 is good, but 60 is expected now. PSone could do 60 fps for crying out loud (but the graphics took a big hit, lol).

**cliffbo** · 05-23-2006, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by LaLiLuLeLo2003

60fps is best in games because it has to be responsive to the input of the user. A video can be passable at 15 fps, disney animations run at 30, the average is 24 (most anime clocks in at that), but games are a different story. 30 is good, but 60 is expected now. PSone could do 60 fps for crying out loud (but the graphics took a big hit, lol).

i myself think that KK suggested that PS3 could do 120fps because by setting the bar higher it guarentees more games aiming at 60fps. but imagine if we do get games at 120fps! no doubt if MS do manage to survive long enough to bring out xbox3 and it runs at 120fps, then those saying 30fps is enough will change the record.