XBOX360 Over-Heating problem. Could PS3 also have this problem?

**BahnNZ** · 10-12-2005, 10:25 AM

Seen 360 and PS3 in the flesh, PS3 is smaller, mostly thinner.

The 360 is overheating and I've preordered one, uh oh...

***Luis*** · 10-12-2005, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by kaphwan063

And, possessing my grade 11 physics knowledge, if water is being used to cool the system down and the console is on (and thus generating heat) for a long time, won't the water ultimately reach a point where it cannot safely absorb any heat?

Plus... safety sam says water and electricity don't mix.

Water would of course eventually evaporate if you weren't using an airtight design, even if you never ever turned on the console. Airtight would be mandatory since you don't want the liquid, water or whatever else, to be condensed over the rest of the components and rendering the system totally unable to cool itself down in the end.

Actually, water per se (distilled water) does not conduct electricity; other compounds dissolved in it, residual or not, are the ones that do - and this will happen everytime in practice since distilled water is like an ideal (i.e. impossible) condition. Anyway, in the case they used any liquid to cool the system down, it wouldn't be exactly water, there are more efficient and cheap enough solutions.

**warmachine** · 10-12-2005, 11:36 AM

Has anyone saved the footage and could upload it at http://rapidshare.de

Please!

Z · 10-12-2005, 02:02 PM

Actually, water per se (distilled water) does not conduct electricity; other compounds dissolved in it, residual or not, are the ones that do - and this will happen everytime in practice since distilled water is like an ideal (i.e. impossible) condition. Anyway, in the case they used any liquid to cool the system down, it wouldn't be exactly water, there are more efficient and cheap enough solutions.

technically, pure water still conducte electricity (very weak though). salt also conducts electricity (again, very weak). mix the two together and voila! Safty Samturns to Shacky Shmam!

for a long time, won't the water ultimately reach a point where it cannot safely absorb any heat?

that is why a fan has to be used in such a situation. think about it like cooling in cars or air conditioners.
I presume advanced liquid cooling techniques do not require fans at all. they can cool the liquid by compression/de-compression.

***Luis*** · 10-12-2005, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Z

technically, pure water still conducte electricity (very weak though). salt also conducts electricity (again, very weak). mix the two together and voila! Safty Samturns to Shacky Shmam!.

Precisely. Just wanted to get people rid of the misconception that water on an electric circuit will always provoke a catastrophe

You need a good amount of ionization for this to happen, and this is not going to be the case in our everyday-water-leaking-inside-our-consoles scenario.

Anyway, chemistry class is over

let's get back to the topic.

I'm curious to see how silent will be both 360 and PS3. From what I heard it looks like 360 will be very silent, at least when it is working as a media center. However, when we'll be playing Killzone or MGS4 in full DD/DTS glory I don't think anyone will care about that (hopefully) little noise

**xbdestroya** · 10-12-2005, 03:12 PM

Actually word is that the 360 is not all that silent. Forgot where I read the commentary on that, but basically in a room with no other prominent ambient noise, the 360's fans were noticeably audible. Probably quiter than the original XBox though, to be sure. I'm certainly hoping that the PS3 goes as much for silence as possible - no doubt my launch PS2 is loud loud loud when turned on.

**Killing Moon** · 10-12-2005, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by D3adcell

Well the xbox360 does have 3 multicore processors while the ps3 only has one, the cell. So there should be considerably less heat generated from the ps3.

Microsoft would certainly have the over heating problem fixed before shipping the product. If not it would not cause far less sales then they want, but also tarnish their name a little more. It might make some large businesses that use microsoft products weary of using them.

WTF?!

**Nerve-Damage** · 10-12-2005, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by Killing Moon

WTF?!

I think he worded it a little bit wrong!?!

Anyhow, the Xbox 360 has a three core processor design while the ps3 only has one PPE and seven active SPE’s. As far as heat issues goes, Sony also has its work cut out for them (cooling solution), those seven SPE’s haven’t disappeared d3adcell

.

**xbdestroya** · 10-12-2005, 03:55 PM

Yeah I agree, the wording on that quote was something of a head-scratcher. The Cell with it's seven SPE's does have a lower thermal profile than the XeCPU with it's three PPE cores, so Cell will be easier to cool, but certainly still something requiring some consideration.

**Coded-Dude** · 10-12-2005, 04:19 PM

Yes and No - "Sony also has its work cut out for them......."
Sony, or was it IBM, previously released info concerning the CELL and its ability to run impressively well at temperatures that would normally "melt" an x86 chip.

Okay I found the article:

The technical specs include:
221 mm2, making it a medium sized chip
234 million transistors
fabricated with 90 nanometer SOI technology
(Low K, 8 layers, Copper interconnect)
runs at 4.6 GHz at 1.3v (50-80W estimates)
has an 85° Celsius operating temp w/heat sink
6.4 Gigabit communication channel(s) to the outside world.
4 x 128 bit internal bus (ring), 96 Bytes/cycle
9 Cores / 10 Execution threads
(The main core is dual threaded, so can do two things at once)
They didn’t imply whether that was a fanned heat sink, so the heat might not be that bad.

So, I think they might be more worried with keeping everything else cool, besides the cell. A lot of fans might be noisy, but probably well worth it.....
Document in PDF Format

**xbdestroya** · 10-12-2005, 04:57 PM

Well, and a 3.2 GHz they should be able to run it at 1 volt (or even 0.9v) rather than 1.3 volts - giving much lower thermals than 4.6 GHz @ 1.3v.

**cpiasminc** · 10-12-2005, 05:20 PM

technically, pure water still conducte electricity (very weak though).

Yes, because there's still some ion concentration and applying a potential difference draws ions to their respective terminals. Which is why in the process of chipmaking, fabs use deionized water. Either way, we're assuming that the coolant that's sealed in the heatpipes is actually water, which it really may not be. For all we know it could be glycol.

I presume advanced liquid cooling techniques do not require fans at all. they can cool the liquid by compression/de-compression.

Phase-change cooling like Vapochill-type thing (or for that matter, your refrigerator) still generate heat in the compression process -- it's just that all that heat is at the compressor and the rate at which it escapes is considered reasonable. Either way, you look at the way most any heatpipe cooler works, the heat differentials create an inherent flow within the pipes, and it basically requires the heatsink to serve as a radiator to cool the hot fluid. The heatsink still will require a fan.

A full-blown water cooling setup will still require something to cool the radiator or else the water will just heat up until you reach some sort of equilibrium, which may actually be an unfortunately high temperature depending on what kind of chip you're cooling. While the actual power consumption of 360's CPU may not be that high compared to PC chips, it's probably going to be pretty high in the scope of mobile chips, which, when you're putting the darn thing in a small enclosure, is the kind of scale you want to look at.

You could use, say, mercury as a coolant in the heatpipes, and the results would put water utterly to shame, but safety concerns make it a problematic choice should anything get damaged. It'll be certain death for whoever, within those first few weeks after release, makes a video of throwing a 360 out the window and driving over it.

**Crossbar** · 10-12-2005, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Dude

Yes and No - "Sony also has its work cut out for them......."
Sony, or was it IBM, previously released info concerning the CELL and its ability to run impressively well at temperatures that would normally "melt" an x86 chip.

Okay I found the article:

So, I think they might be more worried with keeping everything else cool, besides the cell. A lot of fans might be noisy, but probably well worth it.....
Document in PDF Format

That document contained quite a lot of BS and it's 9 months old. I wouldn't pay to much attention to those volt and Watt numbers.

**Grandia** · 10-12-2005, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Gegenki

PS3 is smaller than Xbox 360
I remember seeing a picture of the Xbox360 mobo and I remember seeing quiet alot of fan's I think it had 2 on the main board and 2 by the vents
With liquid cooling don't you have to treat the water every so often?

I dunno, a friend of mine who attended TGS stated that the PS3 looked bigger than the Xbox 360.

**xbdestroya** · 10-12-2005, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Grandia

I dunno, a friend of mine who attended TGS stated that the PS3 looked bigger than the Xbox 360.

Well, but by volume the PS3 is technically smaller. It's larger in one dimension and smaller in the other two - forget which dimensions, but there's that screen shot of the official dimensions in mm's somewhere floating around the net.

Of course, we can't be 100% certain that the PS3 is in it's final form.

**Gegenki** · 10-12-2005, 09:09 PM

The PS3 - when stood up is shorter
And I think it wasn't as long - it is thicker.

**Danji** · 10-12-2005, 10:11 PM

I think it being thicker would help for cooling along with the conveniently place airholes on the top. It is my guess that the PS3 will be better at heat distribution than the 360 due to that and whatever precautions sony themselves take.

Z · 10-13-2005, 06:09 AM

I think it being thicker would help for cooling along with the conveniently place airholes on the top.

that would be a good use for the barrel-like shape, lol.

I am not sure of a redesign will happen. or is that one of the surprises Sony will make before launching?

**kaphwan** · 10-13-2005, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by cpiasmic:
A full-blown water cooling setup will still require something to cool the radiator or else the water will just heat up until you reach some sort of equilibrium, which may actually be an unfortunately high temperature depending on what kind of chip you're cooling.

That's what I meant...

Now, it would be difficult to use liquid-cooling wouldn't it? You'd have to put in the manual some way to change the water or otherwise cool the endothermic medium. Putting such a task in the hands of your average joe end-user can't be a good idea.

**Danji** · 10-13-2005, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by Z

that would be a good use for the barrel-like shape, lol.

I am not sure of a redesign will happen. or is that one of the surprises Sony will make before launching?

I think that the console is pretty set in stone but the controller is probably going to change.