PS3 Graphics Discussion Thread Part 3

[ainsley]

games will never look better then movies of current generations since movies can take as long as they want with the developement and can take hours to render one frame. graphics will eventually match movies but never be better since there will be a limit. graphics can only look as good as real life. and we should be hitting that mark by 2015.

But real life looks better than movies cos movies use motion blur and other eye trickery.

[ps3man]

The aniamated movie are at high resoultion. Ps3 could do at lower resoultion like 1980x1080.

[megadrive]

once again, I believe PS3 games will look like midrange videogame prerendered intro/cutscene CGIs from the late generation PS1 games or early generation PS2 games, upto about Tekken 4 CGI (not the stills but the FMV)

I believe PS4 games in starting in2011-2012, through it's lifecycle to about 2017 will look like very highend prerendered videogame into/cut-scenes of the late generation PS2 CGIs or early generation PS3 CGIs, and even perhaps OLD CGI films like Toy Story.

we probably won't get graphics that are like the more recent film CGIs (FF:TSW) until PS5 in 2018-2020. with full blown (no cheats) raytracing, radiosity, global illumination on every pixel, or subpixel, with massively complex geometry in the evironments and models.

so while I cannot see into the future, I can give very rough guesstimates on what I think each new generation of Playstation will (or should) bring.


ok now that I said something on-topic, i gotta point out something that's somewhat off-topic:

http://www.playstation3insider.com/f...pic.php?t=2281

a new EE Times article on the CELL workstation and PS3.

[Makaveli_786]

I think what people dont understand is we wont follow the same steps after the PS3.

Say a computer doubles in aspect every 2 years, so if we got a 10 gigaflop processor in two years it will be 20...

Were not simply going to jump to 1000 gigaflops, then every two years add another 2 gigaflops, so it wont be 2006 1000 gigaflops, 2008 1002 gigaflops, 2010 1004 gigaflops, it probably wont even be 2006 1 teraflop, 2008 2 teraflops, 2010 4 teraflops.

Too many people are looking at Moore's law when making predictions, if the PS3 is 1000 times more powerful than the PS2 then PS4 may be 1000 times more powerful than a PS3.

People are underestimating the power of the PS3 TREMENDOUSLY but I dont blame them, ive never seen anything running on a 1 teraflop processor before so I wouldnt know what it would look like either.

[ps3man]

once again, I believe PS3 games will look like midrange videogame prerendered intro/cutscene CGIs from the late generation PS1 games or early generation PS2 games, upto about Tekken 4 CGI (not the stills but the FMV)

I believe PS4 games in starting in2011-2012, through it's lifecycle to about 2017 will look like very highend prerendered videogame into/cut-scenes of the late generation PS2 CGIs or early generation PS3 CGIs, and even perhaps OLD CGI films like Toy Story.

we probably won't get graphics that are like the more recent film CGIs (FF:TSW) until PS5 in 2018-2020. with full blown (no cheats) raytracing, radiosity, global illumination on every pixel, or subpixel, with massively complex geometry in the evironments and models.

so while I cannot see into the future, I can give very rough guesstimates on what I think each new generation of Playstation will (or should) bring.


ok now that I said something on-topic, i gotta point out something that's somewhat off-topic:

http://www.playstation3insider.com/f...pic.php?t=2281

a new EE Times article on the CELL workstation and PS3.

I Think you're underestimating the graphical power of the ps3. I think the ps3 is going to blow away the PS1 fmv. But in the middle of it's life cycle it should reach the low quality ps2 FMV games.

[High Lander]

Anyone who knows MATH and believes PS3 will be something between 256GFLOPS and 1TFLOP (the CPU alone... the GPU will also have something close to that), know that PS3 WILL FOR SURE BE ABLE to render FFTSW in real time.

Yes, it will render it. But a LIVE GAME is far beyond that, you know... rendering is just a part of the whole shit.

But even knowing that, I believe that the 2nd generation of PS3 titles (2008) will look 95% like FFTSW.

PS4 will be like 300 to 1000 times faster than PS3. It will be able to render hundreds of Toy Stories simultaneously, easily.

PS5 will be 300 - 1000 times faster than PS4 (you know math, one million times faster than PS3, one BILLION times faster than your Pentium IV)

Not even God would know what to do with that.
PS5 could render hundreds of thousands, may be one million FFTSW at the same time. I believe in one hundred thousand with full ray tracing and everything else on.

Moore´s law is to slow for Sony, as Sony said itself. In 6 years, you should get 16 times faster... but Sony aims at 1000x faster.

And we read from Sony , one year ago, that "we need a machine 60 times faster than PS2 to achieve hig quality real time CGI"

So, if PS4 , 1 million times faster, is not enough... well, I prefer to believe Mr Megadrive is completely ou of his mind !!!!!!

Believe, PS3 will be MUCH FASTER than the GS CUBE, and this one could render FFTSW with a very good quality (much less hair count, but the scenes looked identical)... PS3 will do much better than that, and that´s already "almost perfect".

Sorry ))) I still can´t stop laughing... PS4 (will be 30 times faster than NECs Earth Simulator, the 3 store, fastest supercomputer cluster on earth) won´t be able... bwaaahahahahaa !!!!!!

[Makaveli_786]

I feel your pain, I honestly think some people dont understand the maths involved when we talk about 1 teraflop, that is stunning processing power.

[ps3man]

High Lander. No the gscube can't render ffstw in realtime well it can but no way near the same quality. GScube is gone but the ps3 will be better than the gscube.

[Ironlungz]

I think that Sony could be changing the game on the industry....

I'm going to say this to put it out there....Instead of following graphic languages like DirectX or OpenGL for games. Sony maybe having game developers use some form of Hybrid Game/Movie tools. I'm thinking along the lines of something "LIKE" REYES Renderman for PS3 tools set. We could be at a cross road for innovation (SONY Imagineworks).

[brownbeaner2]

High Lander. No the gscube can't render ffstw in realtime well it can but no way near the same quality. GScube is gone but the ps3 will be better than the gscube.

where creating the movie i read that just to get 5 seconds of frames it took 2-12 hours i dont remember if it was 2 or 12 but even it it was using multiple supercomputers to create that would take 2or more hours for a couple of seconds of frames of CG it was a room like 20x20 feet or bigger. with massive cooling air conditioning units for cooling.

[megadrive]

Anyone who knows MATH and believes PS3 will be something between 256GFLOPS and 1TFLOP (the CPU alone... the GPU will also have something close to that), know that PS3 WILL FOR SURE BE ABLE to render FFTSW in real time.

Yes, it will render it. But a LIVE GAME is far beyond that, you know... rendering is just a part of the whole shit.

But even knowing that, I believe that the 2nd generation of PS3 titles (2008) will look 95% like FFTSW.

PS4 will be like 300 to 1000 times faster than PS3. It will be able to render hundreds of Toy Stories simultaneously, easily.

PS5 will be 300 - 1000 times faster than PS4 (you know math, one million times faster than PS3, one BILLION times faster than your Pentium IV)

Not even God would know what to do with that.
PS5 could render hundreds of thousands, may be one million FFTSW at the same time. I believe in one hundred thousand with full ray tracing and everything else on.

<snip, ok that's enough>


<sighs at having to explain reality to some folks>

The GSCube cannot render Final Fantasy The Spirits Within in realtime, as it was in the movie. what GSCube *can* do, is render a very very simplified, reduced complexity version of some of the least complex scenes in the movie.

Think of GSCube doing Final Fantasy The Spirits Within like your 8-Bit NES doing Capcom's Street Fighter II. sure the NES can have a Street Fighter II game, in name, but it is not anywhere near the coin-op Street Fighter II.... Just like GSCube's rendition of a select few parts of Final Fantasy TSW are not anywhere near as good as the Final Fantasy CG movie.

now think of PS3 doing Final Fantasy The Spirits Within like your Super NES doing Street Fighter II. the Super NES can do a better job at Street Fighter II than your NES, but still a long way off from the coin-op.

ok so that isn't the most accurate analogy. PS3 will still be not nearly as close to FF:TSW as SNES Street Fighter II is to the coin-op arcade Street Fighter II.

So no, PS3 will not even be able to render Final Fantasy The Spirits Within, in realtime, as it was in the movie. anyone who says it can, simply doesn't understand what goes into CG films. or what will realistically be possible in realtime on a console with limited memory. yes even the mighty PS3 will only have so much memory (512 MB or less). you would need many many many GigaBytes of RAM plus a massive amount MORE processing power than PS3 will have, to do Final Fantasy The Spirits Within pixel for pixel, polygon for polygon, raytrace for raytrace, effect for effect, layer for layer, etc.

The PlayStation4 *might* start to approach Final Fantasy The Spirits Within, in realtime, IF we are really loved by Sony (re: if they spend the cash in R&D to produce a mega beast of a chipset)

I would say confidently that PlayStation 5 would be capable of doing Final Fantasy The Spirits Within in realtime.

If you think PS3 will do that FF movie in realtime, you need to get your head out of the clouds and start thinking more realistically. like FF8, FF9 CG, maybe FFX CG at the most.

call me conservative, but not an idiot :roll:

[KlawHammer]

High Lander. No the gscube can't render ffstw in realtime well it can but no way near the same quality. GScube is gone but the ps3 will be better than the gscube.

where creating the movie i read that just to get 5 seconds of frames it took 2-12 hours i dont remember if it was 2 or 12 but even it it was using multiple supercomputers to create that would take 2or more hours for a couple of seconds of frames of CG it was a room like 20x20 feet or bigger. with massive cooling air conditioning units for cooling.

Yikes, now people do you truly appreciate the power the PS3 will hold?

[L3XO]

games will never look better then movies of current generations since movies can take as long as they want with the developement and can take hours to render one frame. graphics will eventually match movies but never be better since there will be a limit. graphics can only look as good as real life. and we should be hitting that mark by 2015.

The correct date for VR Graphics is supposed to be 2020. Graphics will be so good that you wont be able to tell the difference between the game and the movie (movie=real life) at any frame. FF TSW looks real at some moments, but sometimes it looks completely fake, well in around 2020 (as announced) there will be no such thing as "Fake Looking".

Ill try to find the article for you if i can.

[KlawHammer]

I hope youre right L3XO, because as far as im concerned, 90% of the time FF TSW characters looked like plastic and thats putting it mildly - the old guy looked the most realistic of them all though...

[Omega Blue]

games will never look better then movies of current generations since movies can take as long as they want with the developement and can take hours to render one frame. graphics will eventually match movies but never be better since there will be a limit. graphics can only look as good as real life. and we should be hitting that mark by 2015.

The correct date for VR Graphics is supposed to be 2020. Graphics will be so good that you wont be able to tell the difference between the game and the movie (movie=real life) at any frame. FF TSW looks real at some moments, but sometimes it looks completely fake, well in around 2010 (as announced) there will be no such thing as "Fake Looking".

Ill try to find the article for you if i can.

John Carmack stated at the GDC this past March that in 10 years video games will be of that quality of the CGI seen in the Lord Of The Rings Movies.

[KlawHammer]

That i cant argue with...

[ps3man]

Anyone who knows MATH and believes PS3 will be something between 256GFLOPS and 1TFLOP (the CPU alone... the GPU will also have something close to that), know that PS3 WILL FOR SURE BE ABLE to render FFTSW in real time.

Yes, it will render it. But a LIVE GAME is far beyond that, you know... rendering is just a part of the whole shit.

But even knowing that, I believe that the 2nd generation of PS3 titles (2008) will look 95% like FFTSW.

PS4 will be like 300 to 1000 times faster than PS3. It will be able to render hundreds of Toy Stories simultaneously, easily.

PS5 will be 300 - 1000 times faster than PS4 (you know math, one million times faster than PS3, one BILLION times faster than your Pentium IV)

Not even God would know what to do with that.
PS5 could render hundreds of thousands, may be one million FFTSW at the same time. I believe in one hundred thousand with full ray tracing and everything else on.

<snip, ok that's enough>


<sighs at having to explain reality to some folks>

The GSCube cannot render Final Fantasy The Spirits Within in realtime, as it was in the movie. what GSCube *can* do, is render a very very simplified, reduced complexity version of some of the least complex scenes in the movie.

Think of GSCube doing Final Fantasy The Spirits Within like your 8-Bit NES doing Capcom's Street Fighter II. sure the NES can have a Street Fighter II game, in name, but it is not anywhere near the coin-op Street Fighter II.... Just like GSCube's rendition of a select few parts of Final Fantasy TSW are not anywhere near as good as the Final Fantasy CG movie.

now think of PS3 doing Final Fantasy The Spirits Within like your Super NES doing Street Fighter II. the Super NES can do a better job at Street Fighter II than your NES, but still a long way off from the coin-op.

ok so that isn't the most accurate analogy. PS3 will still be not nearly as close to FF:TSW as SNES Street Fighter II is to the coin-op arcade Street Fighter II.

So no, PS3 will not even be able to render Final Fantasy The Spirits Within, in realtime, as it was in the movie. anyone who says it can, simply doesn't understand what goes into CG films. or what will realistically be possible in realtime on a console with limited memory. yes even the mighty PS3 will only have so much memory (512 MB or less). you would need many many many GigaBytes of RAM plus a massive amount MORE processing power than PS3 will have, to do Final Fantasy The Spirits Within pixel for pixel, polygon for polygon, raytrace for raytrace, effect for effect, layer for layer, etc.

The PlayStation4 *might* start to approach Final Fantasy The Spirits Within, in realtime, IF we are really loved by Sony (re: if they spend the cash in R&D to produce a mega beast of a chipset)

I would say confidently that PlayStation 5 would be capable of doing Final Fantasy The Spirits Within in realtime.

If you think PS3 will do that FF movie in realtime, you need to get your head out of the clouds and start thinking more realistically. like FF8, FF9 CG, maybe FFX CG at the most.

call me conservative, but not an idiot :roll:

I agree with you about everything expect for the last part. I think PS3 is going to blow away FF8-9 even 10 maybe. I'm accpect toy story 1 or2, or Warcraft FMV's. I have a feeling that PS3 is going to use the REYES method that would be sweet.

[High Lander]

The GSCube cannot render Final Fantasy The Spirits Within in realtime, as it was in the movie. what GSCube *can* do, is render a very very simplified, reduced complexity version of some of the least complex scenes in the movie.

YES, it was a simplified version,
NO, it looked almost like the original.

If GSCube was like 2 or 3 times faster, it could do the job (not with all ray tracing, but could look 95% identical, since FFTSW is FAR from awesome grafix).

Guess what... PS3 will be 62 times faster than GSCube (and no, it does NOT need to have tons of gigs of ram memory if it´s ultra fast, it does not need to have the whole job on the fly at once).
It could render a few FFTSW at the same time... not just one.

But AGAIN, game is far more than just rendering, but PS3 games will look 95% like FFTSW.

Again, PS4 will be 1000 times faster... it could render MANY FFTSW will all ray trace you can imagine on... dozens... hundreds...

[Makaveli_786]

I remember when the GSCube was first coming around and a technician at Sony said on "Outrageous Fortunes" the GSCube is too weak to render FF:TSW in real time and theyd need something at least 60 times the power of PS2 with additional tricks to actually render something that good, when asked what it would take to render something that looks better than CGI he said it would require 60 times the power of a single GSCube...

The GSCube was 100 gigaflops, thats 60*100=6 teraflops, even more speculation the PS3 would be 1000 times more powerful than PS2.

[imported_The_One]

will be 30 times faster than NECs Earth Simulator, the 3 store, fastest supercomputer cluster on earth

How fast is the NEC ES exactly?
But it's not surprising... the NEC ES was built a few years ago... just like how the PS2 out performs the NASA Super computer by 3.2 GFLOp/s .
If the NEC ES gets upgraded with the same technological equipment as the PS4, then there's no way the PS4 can beat it .
What I'm basically saying is, it's not all that fair to compare an outdated hardware with state-of-the-art hardware .

But AGAIN, game is far more than just rendering, but PS3 games will look 95% like FFTSW.

Exactly, he's got a point. Even if the PS3 is going to be able to render FF:TSW graphics, it won't be able to simulate it, so there's no way that we'll be seeing FF:TSW graphics in an actual real-time game.