Zelda: From Tech Demo To Game

[frosty]

didn't go superpower with Vita? They made it do uncharted FFS. It's the most powerful handheld ever made, and also the most feature rich.

It is based on the current speculation, sure. But it comes from the same source that also released the info about a 6 inch touch screen controller. We all know that ended up being false.

It was 6.2 inches instead of 6. So I am going on a hunch and say that guy knew a thing or two.

Ubisoft doesn't even know exactly how powerful this thing is. Their comments (they're more inside than any journalist will ever be) indicate that Nintendo may not have even finalized the hardware in Wii U yet, which is why they've been so reluctant to discuss it's true specs. It could come out even more powerful, but my point is that it's not known what this thing can do. We do know nothing we've seen it do can't be done on current systems.

And Viper, you're adding up specs as if the 3 cards run at 100% efficiency, which isn't true. No game is going to utilize all 3 of those cards to their fullest, nowhere near as well as if you had combined all that onto the same silicon. And I'm not saying PS4 will have a top of the line GPU when it launches, but I am saying it'll be better than what our current top of the line is, especially since it's a closed system with a CPU that will likely aid in rendering.

[Smokey]

i got to ask WTF is this VITA???

[frosty]

Vita = NGP aka PSP2.

[Smokey]

ahhhh ok cool thanks frosty

[Newboi]

I think you do have a point Frosty. Even Mark Rein said that the team could probably get that demo running at the same fidelity and framerate on one GTX 580 if they spent more time optimizing.

Most of the performance in GPU video cards isn't used effectively anyways. To my knowledge, and I believe John Carmack has said this as well, there is a huge api overhead when writing graphics engines for PC videocards (there's also the issue that you have to program for many different cards).

I'm personally curious if the demo was run using SLI scaling or if the engine was actually retooled to utilize 3 cards at the same time?

Edit: And to keep this post at least moderately on topic, that Zelda Tech demo looked amazing! However, I didn't think the graphical fidelity was so stellar that it couldn't be done on the PS3 or 360 though. Things change if that tech demo was running at 1080p however!

[Crazybone126]

I think you do have a point Frosty. Even Mark Rein said that the team could probably get that demo running at the same fidelity and framerate on one GTX 580 if they spent more time optimizing.

Most of the performance in GPU video cards isn't used effectively anyways. To my knowledge, and I believe John Carmack has said this as well, there is a huge api overhead when writing graphics engines for PC videocards (there's also the issue that you have to program for many different cards).

I'm personally curious if the demo was run using SLI scaling or if the engine was actually retooled to utilize 3 cards at the same time?

Edit: And to keep this post at least moderately on topic, that Zelda Tech demo looked amazing! However, I didn't think the graphical fidelity was so stellar that it couldn't be done on the PS3 or 360 though. Things change if that tech demo was running at 1080p however!

I believe it was. Nintendo was kind of boasting at how they had tech demos running at 1080p.

[frosty]

That's when we enter the all too familiar debate of if they're saying 1080p upscaled (like 360 tried boasting about when they enabled "1080p on all games!" to try to counter the hype PS3 was generating with it's 1080p output) from a lower resolution, or if it's 1080p native. And if it's native, are they able to pull anything off like AA (anti-aliasing, removing jagged edges from diagonal lines... for those of you not in the know) and the like as well? From the Ubi game I saw, that's a big negative, but Ubi says those devkits don't have final hardware in them (not a good thing less than a year out IMO, ask PS3 and it's launch titles). It's going to be interesting to see how things shape up. My personal idea is that they have a CPU and GPU nailed down, but perhaps are trying to figure out the best RAM combination to pull off the most performance while still keeping the thing cheap enough to cram that expensive controller in there (part of the reason I think that controller was a mistake, and they should have designed 3DS to be that controller instead). However, Nintendo has proven well a machine can do well using a previous generation's hardware, but they're playing a different game now as well. They no longer have that motion control thing that had never been done in mainstream gaming to wow the casuals that kept wii alive. That's been said and done on every platform now.

There are quite a lot of interesting things about Wii U... Nintendo has flown in the face of doubt before, but I think this time they took too much of a risk by "playing it safe", so to speak.

[Viper]

To be honest, I'd be flat out shocked if it could not put games out at native 1080p. The HD 4770 and higher can all do that just fine and even the mainstream R700's can do that with some lower detail or frame rates.

I honestly cannot see any reason an HD 4770 or even HD 4850 could not be the model GPU. The HD 4770 especially. It's already using the 40 nm process, is on a 128 bit bus, good thermals and performance and much smaller die size. In fact, the PC SKU is only a 512 MB card. Remove all the unnecessary components and features, add another 512 MB for VRAM (1 GB total VRAM) and put into a closed hardware environment with no API overhead and you have a pretty damn good console GPU.

[frosty]

I agree. The parts that have been rumored to be in the machine actually make for a great current gen system. I'm just not so convinced that it's going to be in the same class as what the next gen MS and Sony consoles will be though. We'll see how it shapes up. Nintendo needs to get their game together and start revealing more information.

[Segitz]

Well, the Zelda techdemo is already "confirmed" to only run at 720P, if I am not mistaken (see EG DF Nintendo article for it... won't like for obvious reasons).

[Viper]

Everything was being displayed in 720p with no AA. I'll grant that's a contradiction to the 1080p bullet point Reggie kept slinging around but given that the dev kits and hardware are not final, it's a bit more understandable. Now once we learn final hardware details, forgiveness won't be so forthcoming if they don't hold up to the 1080p claims.

Also, just learned that IBM's own Power7 Twitter account confirmed that Power7 is indeed the CPU. They sure as hell didn't skimp on the CPU end even if it is cut down to 3 or 4 cores.

[frosty]

It makes you wonder what they DID put in those devkits, because that's below 360 power.

[Crazybone126]

Everything was being displayed in 720p with no AA. I'll grant that's a contradiction to the 1080p bullet point Reggie kept slinging around but given that the dev kits and hardware are not final, it's a bit more understandable. Now once we learn final hardware details, forgiveness won't be so forthcoming if they don't hold up to the 1080p claims.

Also, just learned that IBM's own Power7 Twitter account confirmed that Power7 is indeed the CPU. They sure as hell didn't skimp on the CPU end even if it is cut down to 3 or 4 cores.

I think AMD also confirmed what they are using on Wii U at their official website.

[Segitz]

No details from AMD. Though I think the R700 generation rumor is sound. I doubt AMD would license out their newest GPU base, yet (similar to Nvidia and Sony back in the day, which is also the reason why I think Sony will ditch Nvidia for PS4).

[Fallax]

It makes you wonder what they DID put in those devkits, because that's below 360 power.

I do wonder what are in the devkits. I think the CPU is more final then the GPU. Probably why ATI/AMD is not confirming the details yet and IBM is more specific.

Speaking of the Zelda HD video, more and more I think Nintendo had to throw something together. Maybe the leaks made them rush things, I don't know. But I would be surprised if that demo is the best Wii U can do.

[frosty]

The leaks weren't anything that would have made them rush that, I just think they aren't as far along in the development process (both hardware and software) as they'd like to be. I think figuring out how to keep the console affordable while still powerful and still have that controller has proven quite tricky for them.

[Viper]

No details from AMD. Though I think the R700 generation rumor is sound. I doubt AMD would license out their newest GPU base, yet (similar to Nvidia and Sony back in the day, which is also the reason why I think Sony will ditch Nvidia for PS4).

The HD 4770 makes a lot of sense to me if they use that generation. But I don't see any reason why they can't use anything from the 4,6 or upcoming 7xxx series. In fact, the power to watt ratio for them would be higher and the costs would be lower.

Also to note, the AMD Fusion Developer Summit is taking place right now and it is believed the Southern Islands (HD 7xxx) are being shown behind closed doors and an official announcement regarding the series is forthcoming today or tomorrow. Nintendo and AMD may have been tight lipped about the GPU simply because they may be using a midrange model of a GPU series that hasn't exactly been announced yet.

[frosty]

It's not out of the question, look at 360's GPU incorporating limited implementation of DX11 features.

[Segitz]

The HD 4770 makes a lot of sense to me if they use that generation. But I don't see any reason why they can't use anything from the 4,6 or upcoming 7xxx series. In fact, the power to watt ratio for them would be higher and the costs would be lower.

Also to note, the AMD Fusion Developer Summit is taking place right now and it is believed the Southern Islands (HD 7xxx) are being shown behind closed doors and an official announcement regarding the series is forthcoming today or tomorrow. Nintendo and AMD may have been tight lipped about the GPU simply because they may be using a midrange model of a GPU series that hasn't exactly been announced yet.

I find it unlikely because of two reasons, both of which have nothing to do with the hardware itself. First, going with NI instead of R700 will likely cost Nintendo an arm and a leg to license and AMD has a bit less incentive to license out their newest hardware, too. I have a hard time explaining this in German, so let me try it in english. Giving away their newest technology might diminish their ROI in PC GPU sales. I'd guess the profit in PC hardware is higher than licensing the tech to Nintendo. Also, their OEMs might be against it too. It's more or less the same reason Sony didn't get a G80, which launched "day and date" with PS3 (at least "rumor has it").

[KRA]

but nintendo has a lot of money!