Batman: Arkham City

**TimmyJ** · 08-05-2010, 07:57 PM

You could just be let loose in the city to roam freely, with the option of 1 or 2 story-based missions/objectives at a time. Upon completion of these missions/objectives the night would end and you'd return to the Batcave, where you could research, build, and upgrade equipment.

**AC!D** · 08-05-2010, 10:56 PM

Screw that! What made Arkham Asylum so great was the focused linear story. An open world would completely ruin the gameplay. I cant think of a single stealth combat system that has been applied to an open world game to date that has been a success. The outdoor hub system of Arkham Asylum was just right in giving the illusion of an open world connecting linear levels. It also allowed for a more cinematic game. Batmans skills just wouldnt work in an open world because he is after all only human. Thats what seperates him from the rest. He doesnt have any super powers.

***Crazybone126*** · 08-05-2010, 11:15 PM

Originally Posted by AC!D

Screw that! What made Arkham Asylum so great was the focused linear story. An open world would completely ruin the gameplay. I cant think of a single stealth combat system that has been applied to an open world game to date that has been a success. The outdoor hub system of Arkham Asylum was just right in giving the illusion of an open world connecting linear levels. It also allowed for a more cinematic game. Batmans skills just wouldnt work in an open world because he is after all only human. Thats what seperates him from the rest. He doesnt have any super powers.

If that were the case, then there wouldn't be Batman comics and movies of him navigating throughout an entire city. Does Batmobile ring a bell? In my eyes, what separates Batman from other super heroes is not that he doesn't have super powers, it's that he proved you don't need them. He can do just the same as all the other heroes, due to his advanced technology.

**AC!D** · 08-05-2010, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by Crazybone126

If that were the case, then there wouldn't be Batman comics and movies of him navigating throughout an entire city. Does Batmobile ring a bell? In my eyes, what separates Batman from other super heroes is not that he doesn't have super powers, it's that he proved you don't need them. He can do just the same as all the other heroes, due to his advanced technology.

Thats all good and well in a fictional world but you fail to explain how this will be integrated into a open world game? Movies and comics are even more linear. They dont bore you with the drive there unless something exciting happens so i dont get your point. How will the combat system work? Will he now swing around like spiderman from building to building? What about predator/detective mode will it need zoom functionality now to see crimes from on top of tall buildings? AI, cars, Gotham brought to life? Building interiors being limited? Maintaining atmosphere? Graphics taking a hit? Do you really expect all these things to fit smoothly into the existing Arkham template? Do you really want to be driving around town in the bat mobile doing pointless throw away side quests that plague most open world games?

Personally no thanks. It would be a disaster for me!

***Crazybone126*** · 08-05-2010, 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by AC!D

Thats all good and well in a fictional world but you fail to explain how this will be integrated into a open world game? Movies and comics are even more linear. They dont bore you with the drive there unless something exciting happens so i dont get your point. How will the combat system work? Will he now swing around like spiderman from building to building? What about predator/detective mode will it need zoom functionality now to see crimes from on top of tall buildings? AI, cars, Gotham brought to life? Building interiors being limited? Maintaining atmosphere? Graphics taking a hit? Do you really expect all these things to fit smoothly into the existing Arkham template? Do you really want to be driving around town in the bat mobile doing pointless throw away side quests that plague most open world games?

Personally no thanks. It would be a disaster!

Gotham City IS a fictional world. I'm just assuming you haven't played some of the best of open world games, or you just hate open world games. Games like Crackdown, Red Dead Redemption, and others have done open world the way it always should have been. Realisticly. Batman is all about realism. Imagine it this way. You stop by the police station to pay Commissioner Gordon a visit. He tells you about something going on somewhere throughout Arkham City (Arkham City is a smaller city within Gotham City FYI) so you just do that mission he tells you to do. On your way to that mission you could run into a whole bunch of other people. I don't see why you refuse to see Batman at the top of a skyscraper gliding building to building, staying in the dark, and being stealthy. I think you're making it sound more difficult than what it really is. The entire Batman story has always been based around the city of Gotham as a whole. Sooner or later you're going to have to man up to the fact that just being in a desolate asylum isn't what Batman has always been about. He's going to have to head into the city eventually and forced to fight crime within it.

**AC!D** · 08-05-2010, 11:59 PM

I love open world games and yeah i dont know exactly what kind of comparison your trying to make with Red Dead and Crackdown but ok. I just dont think the gameplay established in the first game will fit in. I can imagine gliding around Gotham, swinging from building to building, every building having 20 imaginary gargoyles on them etc. but that takes me out of the Batman illusion and atmosphere. I also never said id rather remain in one place. There can be driving and flying levels linking different parts of Gotham with action and a more cinematic experience instead. Id prefer bigger levels rather than an open world.

***Crazybone126*** · 08-06-2010, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by AC!D

I love open world games and yeah i dont know exactly what kind of comparison your trying to make with Red Dead and Crackdown but ok. I just dont think the gameplay established in the first game will fit in. I can imagine gliding around Gotham, swinging from building to building, every building having 20 imaginary gargoyles on them etc. but that takes me out of the Batman illusion and atmosphere. I also never said id rather remain in one place. There can be driving and flying levels linking different parts of Gotham with action and a more cinematic experience instead. Linking different parts of Gotham together. Id prefer bigger levels than an open world.

You say that you don't think the gameplay established in the first game will fit in, yet you say you can imagine gliding around Gotham, swinging from building to building, and every building having 20 gargoyles on them. That sir, is the gameplay from the previous Batman game fitting in with Arkham City. I don't understand how that takes you out of the Batman atmosphere when that's just what Batman does. He glides from building to building lurking above Gotham City awaiting crime to break out, while using awesome gadgets.

PS: Why the hell is this thread in the Playstation section when everyone knows well enough that this should be in the Video Gaming section.

**AC!D** · 08-06-2010, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by Crazybone126

You say that you don't think the gameplay established in the first game will fit in, yet you say you can imagine gliding around Gotham, swinging from building to building, and every building having 20 gargoyles on them. That sir, is the gameplay from the previous Batman game fitting in with Arkham City. I don't understand how that takes you out of the Batman atmosphere when that's just what Batman does. He glides from building to building lurking above Gotham City awaiting crime to break out.

PS: Why the hell is this thread in the Playstation section when everyone knows well enough that this should be in the Video Gaming section.

I can imagine it yes all being dumbed down from graphics to enemy AI to combat to stealth to detective mode to building interiors to a cohesive story to everything needing to be designed from scratch. You seem to think these guys are just gonna suck everything out of a linear game and suddenly throw it into an open world and it will be better. Ive got news for you....Only the best developers in the world can pull off open world games. The streets of Gotham will have to be filled with NPC AI that Waner Brothers will never allow Batman to drive over. How do Rocksteady get past that? What i was trying to get across to you is that books and movies can hide the flaws in the fiction but an open world game cant and this will take you out of that dark Batman atmosphere. Its one thing zipping up Arkham Asylum but its another thing watching Batman do it from building to building like Spiderman. Suddenly i dont feel like Batman anymore. Also finally developers actually managed to not stuff up a super hero game and what happens ? You guys want them to change the entire game design???? Ok WOW just freaking WOW!

***Crazybone126*** · 08-06-2010, 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by AC!D

I can imagine it yes all being dumbed down from graphics to enemy AI to combat to stealth to detective mode to building interiors to a cohesive story to everything needing to be designed from scratch. You seem to think these guys are just gonna suck everything out of a linear game and suddenly throw it into an open world and it will be better. Ive got news for you....Only the best developers in the world can pull off open world games. The streets of Gotham will have to be filled with NPC AI that Waner Brothers will never allow Batman to drive over. How do Rocksteady get past that? What i was trying to get across to you is that books and movies can hide the flaws in the fiction but an open world game cant and this will take you out of that dark Batman atmosphere. Its one thing zipping up Arkham Asylum but its another thing watching Batman do it from building to building like Spiderman. Suddenly i dont feel like Batman anymore. Also finally developers actually managed to not stuff up a super hero game and what happens ? You guys want them to change the entire game design???? Ok WOW just freaking WOW!

You're failing to understand that the design is changing anyway. This game is taking place in a city (the entire atmosphere is changing no matter what). The old elements from Arkham Asylum wouldn't work in this fashion. They are going to have to redo a lot of stuff anyway. You're also hanging yourself up on the driving element too much. Batman doesn't necessarily need a vehicle to get around the city. Did you play the Batman Begins video game? Sure it may have not been a hit but it still showed that you can fly around and still actually feel like Batman. So I don't understand why you are so hung up about Batman flying around the city. I keep reinforcing the word city because that's where this game is taking place. In a city. A city built within Gotham City itself. So that still doesn't necessarily have to be loads of NPCs running around considering they should know not to enter the "city within the city." Either way, you keep crying that they aren't going to change the entire design. Placing the game in a city rather than a corridor asylum is already changing a majority of the design. I don't know how Batman doing what he's suppose to do (you know be a bat) and flying around doesn't make you feel like Batman. Batman doesn't have a cape that induces gliding for no reason. Have you seen the gadgets he has used? Some of them I assume wouldn't make you feel much like Batman. How about I not use Red Dead Redemption as an example. How about Splinter Cell Conviction. Splinter Cell conviction is an open world stealth game and guess what? It worked. It worked well. You use all sorts of gadgets in Splinter Cell, some that you wouldn't think someone would carry around, but guess what, I still felt like a Stealth Operative. I don't know why you just can't fathom the same for Batman.

**AC!D** · 08-06-2010, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by Crazybone126

You're failing to understand that the design is changing anyway. This game is taking place in a city (the entire atmosphere is changing no matter what). The old elements from Arkham Asylum wouldn't work in this fashion. They are going to have to redo a lot of stuff anyway. You're also hanging yourself up on the driving element too much. Batman doesn't necessarily need a vehicle to get around the city. Did you play the Batman Begins video game? Sure it may have not been a hit but it still showed that you can fly around and still actually feel like Batman. So I don't understand why you are so hung up about Batman flying around the city. I keep reinforcing the word city because that's where this game is taking place. In a city. A city built within Gotham City itself. So that still doesn't necessarily have to be loads of NPCs running around considering they should know not to enter the "city within the city." Either way, you keep crying that they aren't going to change the entire design. Placing the game in a city rather than a corridor asylum is already changing a majority of the design. I don't know how Batman doing what he's suppose to do (you know be a bat) and flying around doesn't make you feel like Batman. Batman doesn't have a cape that induces gliding for no reason. Have you seen the gadgets he has used? Some of them I assume wouldn't make you feel much like Batman. How about I not use Red Dead Redemption as an example. How about Splinter Cell Conviction. Splinter Cell conviction is an open world stealth game and guess what? It worked. It worked well. You use all sorts of gadgets in Splinter Cell, some that you wouldn't think someone would carry around, but guess what, I still felt like a Stealth Operative. I don't know why you just can't fathom the same for Batman.

First of all you are assuming way too much from the title Arkham city. To me it sounds like a outer hub like the one that connected the different buildings in Arkham Asylum in the first game. Hopefully a little bigger with a couple of roads. Thats your Arkham City right there. Not i repeat not an open world. I could be wrong but it sounds a hell of a lot more plausible than your open world idea.

Secondly i think you need to go play Splinter Cell Conviction again or go look up the term Open World because Splinter Cell Conviction is not i repeat not a open world game. Which raises my point even more perfectly. Stealth based combat games like MGS, Splinter Cell and Hitman stay linear for a reason. Why you ask? Because Stealth almost always sucks in Open world games. The levels get bigger and bigger which is what i hope for in Arkham City but they dont and wont add an entire city.

***Crazybone126*** · 08-06-2010, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by AC!D

First of all you are assuming way too much from the title Arkham city. To me it sounds like a outer hub like the one that connected the different buildings in Arkham Asylum in the first game. Hopefully a little bigger with a couple of roads. Thats your Arkham City right there. Not i repeat not an open world. I could be wrong but it sounds a hell of a lot more plausible than your open world idea.

Secondly i think you need to go play Splinter Cell Conviction again or go look up the term Open World because Splinter Cell Conviction is not i repeat not a open world game. Which raises my point even more perfectly. Stealth based combat games like MGS, Splinter Cell and Hitman stay linear for a reason. Why you ask? Because Stealth almost always sucks in Open world games. The levels get bigger and bigger which is what i hope for in Arkham City but they dont and wont add an entire city.

A hub city? Come on, now. When in this day and age have you ever heard of a hub city? If you have, please share with us if a hub city actually worked.

**AC!D** · 08-06-2010, 05:47 PM

As you clearly pointed out its a piece of a city i.e a block or three with a couple of roads and the hub worked fine linking parts of Arkham together. Anyways your now just trying to pick any little hole in my argument without answering any questions i ask and making false claims like the Splinter Cell one and stupid comparisons to Red Dead Redemption. This is just making our conversation pointless so lets agree that you can hope for your open world game and ill pray for more of the same just bigger and better ok!

**TimmyJ** · 08-07-2010, 12:01 AM

A game being open world wouldn't necessarily have to be anything other than what you're hoping for, AC!D: a bigger and better version of what we've already had.

With inFamous we've seen an open world game that didn't give us the ability to drive, which would remove the worry of players being able to mow down members of the Gotham public. Depending on what occurs in Arkham City, we may not need to even see the public. Escalation was a key theme of The Dark Knight, and there's no reason to assume that Rocksteady wouldn't draw some inspiration from it - should that be the case, a state of emergency would be reason enough for Batman not to be able to enter every building and for villains to be roaming the street looking to harm the rare civilian/objective.

The stealth and fighting mechanics that are currently in place could already work perfectly well, with traversal being pretty much the only mechanic that would require some serious tweakage - that said, it could just be a simple matter of opening up the map, selecting an area of Gotham to head to, and having a Batmobile driving sequence (not necessarily interactive) serve as a loading screen.

An open world game doesn't have to be GTA or lack a focus in its story, it just has to offer freedom outside of the main structure. Arkham Asylum already did this by way of letting you explore the island at your own pace, so if a future game were to increase the scale of the environment, the number of gadgets/upgrades, and the number of side-villains to defeat (i.e. the Riddler from Arkham Asylum) there's no reason you couldn't have exactly what you want.

To take my premise of a state of emergency, entire blocks of buildings could be sectioned off from each other in elaborate, Batman style. This would allow you to zip between buildings; lurk around corners; creatively utilise environmental hazards to your advantage; use a slew of new Bat-gadgets to facilitate all of this, gadgets which could be gained from searching the city. In essence, everything that's in Arkham Asylum but bigger, more elaborate, and with higher stakes.

A full city would also likely result in several gangs/factions each fighting for control. By convincing one gang that another is looking to take over one of their territories (by planting evidence, using voice recordings etc.), it could be possible to initiate gang warfare, draining one section of gang members (whilst they fight rival gang members in a different area) and making exploration and the completion of objectives easier - or such warfare could draw head honchos of gangs out into the open, allowing you to capture them and extract information and disorganise their subordinates.

Basically, I don't want Bat Theft Auto either, but I do want the developers to keep evolving the gameplay and introducing new elements.

***Crazybone126*** · 08-07-2010, 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by TimmyJ

A game being open world wouldn't necessarily have to be anything other than what you're hoping for, AC!D: a bigger and better version of what we've already had.

With inFamous we've seen an open world game that didn't give us the ability to drive, which would remove the worry of players being able to mow down members of the Gotham public. Depending on what occurs in Arkham City, we may not need to even see the public. Escalation was a key theme of The Dark Knight, and there's no reason to assume that Rocksteady wouldn't draw some inspiration from it - should that be the case, a state of emergency would be reason enough for Batman not to be able to enter every building and for villains to be roaming the street looking to harm the rare civilian/objective.

The stealth and fighting mechanics that are currently in place could already work perfectly well, with traversal being pretty much the only mechanic that would require some serious tweakage - that said, it could just be a simple matter of opening up the map, selecting an area of Gotham to head to, and having a Batmobile driving sequence (not necessarily interactive) serve as a loading screen.

An open world game doesn't have to be GTA or lack a focus in its story, it just has to offer freedom outside of the main structure. Arkham Asylum already did this by way of letting you explore the island at your own pace, so if a future game were to increase the scale of the environment, the number of gadgets/upgrades, and the number of side-villains to defeat (i.e. the Riddler from Arkham Asylum) there's no reason you couldn't have exactly what you want.

To take my premise of a state of emergency, entire blocks of buildings could be sectioned off from each other in elaborate, Batman style. This would allow you to zip between buildings; lurk around corners; creatively utilise environmental hazards to your advantage; use a slew of new Bat-gadgets to facilitate all of this, gadgets which could be gained from searching the city. In essence, everything that's in Arkham Asylum but bigger, more elaborate, and with higher stakes.

A full city would also likely result in several gangs/factions each fighting for control. By convincing one gang that another is looking to take over one of their territories (by planting evidence, using voice recordings etc.), it could be possible to initiate gang warfare, draining one section of gang members (whilst they fight rival gang members in a different area) and making exploration and the completion of objectives easier - or such warfare could draw head honchos of gangs out into the open, allowing you to capture them and extract information and disorganise their subordinates.

Basically, I don't want Bat Theft Auto either, but I do want the developers to keep evolving the gameplay and introducing new elements.

This EXACTLY what I was trying to get at all along. Thanks Tim. This is pretty much EXACTLY what I said since I first posted on this thread.

**AC!D** · 08-07-2010, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by TimmyJ

A game being open world wouldn't necessarily have to be anything other than what you're hoping for, AC!D: a bigger and better version of what we've already had.

With inFamous we've seen an open world game that didn't give us the ability to drive, which would remove the worry of players being able to mow down members of the Gotham public. Depending on what occurs in Arkham City, we may not need to even see the public. Escalation was a key theme of The Dark Knight, and there's no reason to assume that Rocksteady wouldn't draw some inspiration from it - should that be the case, a state of emergency would be reason enough for Batman not to be able to enter every building and for villains to be roaming the street looking to harm the rare civilian/objective.

The stealth and fighting mechanics that are currently in place could already work perfectly well, with traversal being pretty much the only mechanic that would require some serious tweakage - that said, it could just be a simple matter of opening up the map, selecting an area of Gotham to head to, and having a Batmobile driving sequence (not necessarily interactive) serve as a loading screen.

An open world game doesn't have to be GTA or lack a focus in its story, it just has to offer freedom outside of the main structure. Arkham Asylum already did this by way of letting you explore the island at your own pace, so if a future game were to increase the scale of the environment, the number of gadgets/upgrades, and the number of side-villains to defeat (i.e. the Riddler from Arkham Asylum) there's no reason you couldn't have exactly what you want.

To take my premise of a state of emergency, entire blocks of buildings could be sectioned off from each other in elaborate, Batman style. This would allow you to zip between buildings; lurk around corners; creatively utilise environmental hazards to your advantage; use a slew of new Bat-gadgets to facilitate all of this, gadgets which could be gained from searching the city. In essence, everything that's in Arkham Asylum but bigger, more elaborate, and with higher stakes.

A full city would also likely result in several gangs/factions each fighting for control. By convincing one gang that another is looking to take over one of their territories (by planting evidence, using voice recordings etc.), it could be possible to initiate gang warfare, draining one section of gang members (whilst they fight rival gang members in a different area) and making exploration and the completion of objectives easier - or such warfare could draw head honchos of gangs out into the open, allowing you to capture them and extract information and disorganise their subordinates.

Basically, I don't want Bat Theft Auto either, but I do want the developers to keep evolving the gameplay and introducing new elements.

I just like the hub idea of the first game linking together indoor areas so the game doesnt feel like a city with lifeless buildings ala Prototype or something like that. I guess in your example little outdoor hubs could be connected instead of an open world. About going bigger we are in agreement but i still think we are all over thinking the City part of the new title name. I think they wanted to keep this isolated enclosed hub area but didnt want it to seem like they were being lazy and using Arkham Asylum again. This way they could build this new hub in a mini suburb or idustrial area and we wouldnt complain about dejavu. As for the bigger part im sceptical because again Unreal engine isnt exactly synonymous with big open levels or open world games but anyways we will see. Like you said though and i agree what i dont want is Bat Theft Auto.