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View Full Version : Time to start the "Hardcore Gamer Defense Force"



rog27
06-07-2007, 08:14 PM
A weird, random...yet never-the-less inspirational...blog post appeared on N'Gai Croals game column recently. It's from Cliffy B.'s brother, but it speaks worlds to the hardcore gamer's plight as of recently. Wii is ruining our industry. We helped build it. And we shouldn't go down without a fight to mini-games and waggle-fests. Here is the orginal post (shamelessly stolen from GAF):


My brother Cliff and I have been into games long before he ever created Gears of War. He and I played through the original Zelda together and I remember having tournaments with him where we'd play the original Nintendo Ice Hockey game. I liked to stack my team with the fat guys because they had a booming shot that could score from anywhere and were really good at checking. Cliff went the skinny guy route and tried to skate circles around me.

But the times, they are a-changing. If Nintendo has its way, young males will no longer be the dominant segment of the console audience--and this transition appears to be happening faster than I expected. The other day I was in Target looking to pick up some games when I saw an older woman--very likely a grandmother--waiting for the clerk's attention. She wanted him to get her a couple of games from inside the locked glass cabinet. When he asked her which ones, she stated Cooking Mama and Wii Play.

I could barely stifle a groan. Don't get me wrong; I think it's cute that someone who likely had no idea what a video game was would suddenly plunk down her Social Security money so she can cook virtual meals, play a rousing game of table tennis and shark her little grandchildren out of their milk money in billiards. But honestly, I had refused to believe that grandmothers were buying these things as so many news reports have claimed until I saw it with my own eyes. My story may be anecdotal, but the plural of anecdote is data, and there are more than enough news stories on this topic to suggest that this phenomenon is real.

What's more, Nintendo has the sales figures to back up its hype. The NPD sales figures since November have been troubling to me as a hardcore gamer who loves new IPs and in-depth experiences. The Nintendo Wii has built up a ton of momentum in 2007, and despite the fact that it features an internal architecture that maxes out graphically around where the original Xbox did, it has quickly become the darling of the non-gaming press. There have been umpteen stories about the scrappy little Wii wooing non-gamers and bringing in hordes of new converts to worship at the altar of Mario.

I'm not saying that the videogame industry shouldn't strive to bring in as many new people as possible. It most definitely should, because new gamers mean a nice, healthy business. My problem is what this new crowd appears to be drawn to. Games like Wii Sports, Wii Play and Cooking Mama have become some of the biggest sellers, and that is what has me worried. If these are the type of games that become blockbusters, then you can count on other gaming companies who cater to the more hardcore gamer--aka me and the milions of others who've been driving this business--to promptly change direction. If we've learned anything about videogame companies, it's that they all are quick to follow each other if one is successful with something. I mean, Sony already imitated the Wii a bit with their Sixaxis controller; Microsoft followed Sony with their own EyeToy-like camera, albeit far less successfully; and Sony is now trying to replicate some kind of online service a la Xbox Live. If Nintendo winds up outselling the 360 and the PS3 by a wide margin, how soon will it be before we gamers are using the Sixaxis to chop up onions with in Metal Gear Mama? How long before we're frantically swinging waggle remotes for tennis, bowling and golf in Halo Sports?

Will games like Halo and Gears of War ever go away? Hell no. But publishers aren't stupid. They're going to go where the majority of the money is and if people want to play the WarioWare mini-games more than the meaty experiences that hardcore gamers love, you're inevitably going to see a corresponding shift in development. Publishers are in the business of making money, so if they can spend six months or a year developing a mini-game package for five-year-old technology and make more profits than they would by spending 2-3 years crafting a long and detailed experience, you can bet your Wiimote that that's exactly what they'll do.

If casual games become the industry's primary money-making vehicle, these mini-game collections and more casual games could wind up completely redefining the market. I don't think we're far off from the day when Hannah Montana Wii and Wii Sports 2 dominate the NPD charts. And as soon as that day comes, why would publishers want to continue to the time and effort to develop an in-depth, cinematic experience when they could slap together a bunch of mini-games with waggle and make just as much money, if not more? Remember, gaming is a love for you and me, but it's ultimately a business for these publishers and developers.

So while the business of the Wii has great for Nintendo--surprise, surprise--and a handful of risk-takers like Ubisoft, it's thus far been ugly when it comes to the experiences beloved by core gamers like myself. The Wii has been chock full of mini-games, PlayStation 2 knockoffs and PSP ports. Yes, there has been The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, but not much else in terms of lengthy, in-depth experiences. As for new intellectual properties, they've been pretty much few and far between, unless you consider Wii Sports and Wii Play new IPs; to me, they're more tech demos than anything else. At least the PS3 has Resistance and MotorStorm, with Lair right around the corner. The 360 has Gears of War, Viva Pinata and Crackdown. But for the Wii, most third parties would rather take the easy way out and continue to port older games with the waggle tacked on than devote the time and resources to creating great new experiences. The fact that the PS2 is still going incredibly strong isn't going to help the situation either, because it and the PSP will provide the Wii with an endless supply of ports for the Wii instead of forcing publishers and developers to think of new and in-depth experiences.

I'll repeat this again: I am not saying that the more hardcore games are going to die out. Smart developers and publishers will realize that they can make a mint off the hardcore, especially if more developers move towards the quick, jump in-jump out type of experience that many Wii and DS games offer. But they will be in the minority. Valve, Epic and others won't turn to making mini-game compilations, but I can definitely see companies like EA and Ubisoft realizing that they don't need huge development teams and hundreds of people working on a game to make a ton of cash in the land of mini-game moneymakers. It's like suddenly discovering that business plan behind McDonald's is applicable to video games.

Some will likely argue that these more casual games are a gateway drug for new users. They'll claim that we should be happy because it will bring a whole new group of people into gaming. I find it hard to believe that something like Wii Play could lead to someone like the little old lady I saw in the store playing Metroid Prime 3. I just don't see it happening. These same people didn't jump into hardcore games before the Wii, but they're suddenly going to do it now because they had some fun playing virtual bowling? I seriously doubt that. She's not going to go from creating a meal in Cooking Mama to saving Zelda. She's never going to defend Sera, guide Reggie Bush into the end zone, or venture into Liberty City. And should the product portfolios of major publishers become a zero-sum game, her tastes will represent a direct threat to my longtime hobby.

I sincerely believe that bringing new people to video games is a good thing. I like seeing the business continue to grow and be even more successful, because I'm old enough to remember the videogame industry crash between the Atari 5200 and the Nintendo Entertainment System. But ultimately, going more mainstream can have unintended consequences--ones that could negatively impact the breadth and depth of the kinds of games that I love, as do millions of others. I think Mike Myers' Wayne Campbell said it best in "Wayne's World" when he was talking about that tool Benjamin Kane, played so memorably by Rob Lowe. "It's like he wants us to be liked by everyone. I mean Led Zeppelin didn't write tunes everybody liked. They left that to the Bee Gees." That statement could very well apply to the Wii and its software lineup.

Me? I'll take "Kashmir" over "Staying Alive" any day of the week.

LINK (http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/levelup/archive/2007/06/07/i-for-one-do-not-welcome-our-new-wii-overlords.aspx)

Two lines in particular resonate with me and make me furious--

It's like suddenly discovering that business plan behind McDonald's is applicable to video games.

and

"It's like he wants us to be liked by everyone. I mean Led Zeppelin didn't write tunes everybody liked. They left that to the Bee Gees."

The games we as tactful hardcore gamers like are the masterpieces, the art, the classics...the 5 star restaurants persay. Our landscape is a beautiful one. But here comes the mass-media and mass-market roaring down our path telling us that we now need to address the needs of grandma-ma. F*ck that. Fine, you can make some games for grandma, but if that's going to lead to the McDonaldism of an industry that's already F'd up...screw it.

It's now time for the creation of the "HARDCORE GAMER DEFENSE FORCE"! We need a logo...someone whip out their awesome photoshop/animated gif skills.

OnBake Platinum
06-07-2007, 08:19 PM
Nintendo is Satan.

LaLiLuLeLo
06-07-2007, 08:20 PM
So the should have called the Wii the VAGiiNA.

VideoGame mania
06-07-2007, 08:23 PM
Calm down, buy games you have always liked. I ain't jumping on Nintendo train ever, even for free.

curryking1
06-07-2007, 08:23 PM
The Wii will end gaming as we know it!!!!11!

For the love of god.... seriously though.....

Suppose the Wii dominates the industry, and the Wii2 after it, and the Wii3 to follow.

What then? RE, MGS, Halo, NG, DMC, Sim City, Starcraft, TES, and other big ticket games and big ticket games to fill their shoes just.... Do you think they'll just disappear? Just vanish into the air?

No. Wtf is that kind of thinking? Are people just retarded or something? You think no thought provoking stories and strategic gameplay will ever exist again? Seriously! You've got to be ***king kidding me!

Do you honestly think no game devs will ever try and do something interesting with something new? Will they stop making mature themed games? Games with lots of technology?

God dammit people! This is a freaking case of terrible common sense! Just because your current avenue of fun is good, does change immediately mean worse? Do you really think no game you'll like will never come out in the future? It's like saying no amazing and fantastic movie will come out ever again because we have so many crappy movies catering to the lowest common denominator.

Honestly though, how can it get any worse than it is now? Does no one realise how many crappy games there are out there? Crappy games outnumber great games like 10000 to 1. And great does not automatically equal complicated or simple fun, and there will surely be room for both.

There will still be Mario Party XYZ, but there will also still be Mario Galaxy and the next big RPG and the next big FPS and the next big racing game that developers will have the interest to make.

If or when the gaming world does change and you can genuinely say 'I like nothing gaming has to offer anymore' than you can yell back at me. But until that time comes, you can kiss my chuddies.

P.S. You realise there are two handhelds out. The DS and PSP both with big sales, one obviously more though? You could argue that the DS is 'oh so simple' but you'd be foolish not to comprehend that their is room both both simple and complicated or games of larger scale and more content, and that's just on the DS.

Sephiroth_VII
06-07-2007, 08:23 PM
I agree with some of the points brought up in the article, but this should really be in general gaming.

rog27
06-07-2007, 08:25 PM
Hey, don't get me wrong...it's the only system I own at the moment (because I'm just a poor grad student). But I want it to stay where it belongs...in the land of Nintendo fantasy retroness that the hardcore know and love...not this new hip alpha-mom non-game bullshit. Or this Nintendog/Animal Crossing little-girl garbage. To that I say GTFO! HARDCORE GAMER DEFENSE FORCE unite!

rog27
06-07-2007, 08:26 PM
I agree with some of the points brought up in the article, but this should really be in general gaming.

I agree with you it should be in general gaming...but it should also be in PS3 and X360 boards...as that is where the majority of hardcore gamers are.

Fats
06-07-2007, 08:27 PM
I agree with some of the points brought up in the article, but this should really be in general gaming.

Agreed. Regardless of us being labeled fanboys now because we fear the Wii is going to cannibalise the industry, things do have the potential to go tits up. From the DS onwards Nintendo have never appealed to me, for my own personal reasons. I fear that consoles such as the 360/PS3 could be a thing of the past based on the Wii's future success.

Sephiroth_VII
06-07-2007, 08:31 PM
Yeah, I've already argued about this subject with some people, and opinions on the subjects seem to be very divided. I, like Cliffy's brother, fear for the PS4 if Wii repeats the success of PS2, and comes out on top of this generation with a multi-million gap.

I plan to own a Wii, when I get the money, but I'm mostly buying it for the party games. And, of course, Zelda.

rog27
06-07-2007, 08:32 PM
Agreed. Regardless of us being labeled fanboys now because we fear the Wii is going to cannibalise the industry, things do have the potential to go tits up. From the DS onwards Nintendo have never appealed to me, for my own personal reasons. I fear that consoles such as the 360/PS3 could be a thing of the past based on the Wii's future success.

You can count on it. Look at the media create sales in Japan over the past year. Every damn month NDS and Wii dominate the top 20 and beyond...it's like no other console makers even exist...and it's always non-game bullshit in the top 10. Scary stuff if you ask me.

It's spreading to the US and Europe as well as of late. Check the numbers. They don't lie.

The only thing that will prevent the spread further is getting these next-gen machines down to 300 bucks or less. Sony and Microsoft need to step up to the plate. Microsoft can save us (ironically), but is being a stingy bastard at the moment. If they can clean up their act and drop the damn price already, we may hopefully kill this Wii-mania fadness (read: "tickle-me-elmo #2"). If not, we may be doomed :(.

woundingchaney
06-07-2007, 08:33 PM
This never ends.

If the Wii is successful its because they brought the public what they wanted, simple as that. We can complain, bicker, or make some makeshift crusade against this new casual market or we can continue to support the games we enjoy. I do very much expect that Sony and MS are going to take a page out of the NIN handbook once the dust has settled but by leaving the hardcore market rest they are potentially giving up on millions of sales. MS and Sony are not going to drop efforts on the hardcore market nor are publishers, if anything they may put more effort into Wii releases but that is far from dropping all other markets. Hell even if the shit does hit the fan there will always be the pc.

If one wants to do something for the hardcore market then perhaps purchase more games (less used games, less renting etc) or heaven forbid let the console loyalty go and buy more consoles.


This article is written by a kid who could use a little bit of Wii in his life. Im about as hardcore as they get and I enjoy the system (hell its best/second best selling game is a hardcore series, people cant tell me that non-gamers are picking up Zelda left and right).

OnBake Platinum
06-07-2007, 08:35 PM
I agree with you it should be in general gaming...but it should also be in PS3 and X360 boards...as that is where the majority of hardcore gamers are.
Excuse me? There are like, none of the touch generation people on the Nintendo board.

Sephiroth_VII
06-07-2007, 08:35 PM
You can count on it. Look at the media create sales in Japan over the past year. Every damn month NDS and Wii dominate the top 20 and beyond...it's like no other console makers even exist...and it's always non-game bullshit in the top 10. Scary stuff if you ask me.

It's spreading to the US and Europe as well as of late. Check the numbers. They don't lie.

The only thing that will prevent the spread further is getting these next-gen machines down to 300 bucks or less. Sony and Microsoft need to step up to the plate. Microsoft can save us (ironically), but is being a stingy bastard at the moment. If they can clean up their act and drop the damn price already, we may hopefully kill this Wii-mania fadness (read: "tickle-me-elmo #2"). If not, we may be doomed :(.

The NDS might also be selling due to the fact that it's seen as the new gameboy though. Pokemon is still a defining factor for many kids when buying portables.

masteratt
06-07-2007, 08:36 PM
PS2 wasn't really for hardcore gamers either, that's what sells.

That's how you get the market, look at Sony pushing EyeToy, Singstar as much as they can, because that's what grows the market.

This is a great thing, Wii is expanding the gaming market and once the dust is settled we'll have a bit of everything (like we did with the line-up of PS2 games) and developers will have more money to make what they want.

Phoenix
06-07-2007, 08:37 PM
Remember the first year of the PS2? Remember the first year of the DS? The two most successful platforms out there? Although not as successful, remember the first year of the Xbox? Don't assume that just because the developers are slow to actually put some effort into it that it will forever be "minigames and waggle-fests."

That said, this does not belong in the PS3 section.

Sephiroth_VII
06-07-2007, 08:37 PM
This never ends.

If the Wii is successful its because they brought the public what they wanted, simple as that. We can complain, bicker, or make some makeshift crusade against this new casual market or we can continue to support the games we enjoy. I do very much expect that Sony and MS are going to take a page out of the NIN handbook once the dust has settled but by leaving the hardcore market rest they are potentially giving up on millions of sales. MS and Sony are not going to drop efforts on the hardcore market nor are publishers, if anything they may put more effort into Wii releases but that is far from dropping all other markets. Hell even if the shit does hit the fan there will always be the pc.

If one wants to do something for the hardcore market then perhaps purchase more games (less used games, less renting etc) or heaven forbid let the console loyalty go and buy more consoles.


This article is written by a kid who could use a little bit of Wii in his life. Im about as hardcore as they get and I enjoy the system (hell its best/second best selling game is a hardcore series, people cant tell me that non-gamers are picking up Zelda left and right).

I also doubt the efficiency of a "crusade," lol! I'm just worried about the future of the industry, but I do know that we can do very little to influence it.

rog27
06-07-2007, 08:37 PM
Excuse me? There are like, none of the touch generation people on the Nintendo board.

Hey, I'm sure there are Hardcore Nintendo-ites in the Nintendo section...but they would never support this agenda because they've obviously already drank the kool-aid. They are accepting of the New Mediocrity. And they will defend it like good little fanboys, of course.

Sephiroth_VII
06-07-2007, 08:38 PM
PS2 wasn't really for hardcore gamers either, that's what sells.

That's how you get the market, look at Sony pushing EyeToy, Singstar as much as they can, because that's what grows the market.

This is a great thing, Wii is expanding the gaming market and once the dust is settled we'll have a bit of everything (like we did with the line-up of PS2 games) and developers will have more money to make what they want.

No, but it does have a lot of hardcore games as well. To my knowledge, the Wii has almost none.

Phoenix
06-07-2007, 08:40 PM
They are accepting of the New Mediocrity. And they will defend it like good little fanboys, of course.What do you mean "of course?" How about you actually take a look outside of your little PS3 section for once before making baseless assumptions?

Sephiroth_VII
06-07-2007, 08:43 PM
Hey, I'm sure there are Hardcore Nintendo-ites in the Nintendo section...but they would never support this agenda because they've obviously already drank the kool-aid. They are accepting of the New Mediocrity. And they will defend it like good little fanboys, of course.

Whoa, easy know Rog. I lurk quite a bit in the Nintendo section, and I rarely see any threads discussing the glory of games like cooking mama 3.

Newboi
06-07-2007, 08:43 PM
There is definitely a distinct logic behind this article, but I think there is more to it.

Yes, we do have grandmas going to the store to buy Cooking Mama and such, but these minigame type titles are just what sold the casual crowd to initially buy the console; I just don't believe that casual games will maintain the longevity of the Wii though.

Casual gamers only play games casually. They aren't going to go out and buy a million Wii sports sequels.

Hardcore gamers are the people who keep the cash flowing. If Nintendo is smart, they will be trying to turn these casual gamers into hardcore gamers. Nintendo is already intentionally holding back consoles for their big AAA titles in the fall. Casual gamers will flock to the Wii's and see Mario Galaxy or Metroid on store shelves and pick them up out of peeked interest. Their interactions with these titles will probably then get them hooked into the hardcore gaming sector (at least this is how I think Nintendo wants things to go).

I'm not saying my opinion is right, but I still think that it's likely.

Edit: But hey, if the article's author turns out to be right then we might see a lot of gamers flock to the playstation brand.

rog27
06-07-2007, 08:45 PM
This never ends.

If the Wii is successful its because they brought the public what they wanted, simple as that. We can complain, bicker, or make some makeshift crusade against this new casual market or we can continue to support the games we enjoy. I do very much expect that Sony and MS are going to take a page out of the NIN handbook once the dust has settled but by leaving the hardcore market rest they are potentially giving up on millions of sales. MS and Sony are not going to drop efforts on the hardcore market nor are publishers, if anything they may put more effort into Wii releases but that is far from dropping all other markets. Hell even if the shit does hit the fan there will always be the pc.

If one wants to do something for the hardcore market then perhaps purchase more games (less used games, less renting etc) or heaven forbid let the console loyalty go and buy more consoles.


This article is written by a kid who could use a little bit of Wii in his life. Im about as hardcore as they get and I enjoy the system (hell its best/second best selling game is a hardcore series, people cant tell me that non-gamers are picking up Zelda left and right).

Hey, look man. I own the damn thing...the Wii. I own it. I like it, but it really doesn't satisfy my hardcore gamer needs. If Nintendo got off it's ass and started making new, deep gameplay experiences like it promised, I wouldn't be so pissed. And where are the new IPs Nintendo? WTF?

I don't care what the mass market wants. I want what I want, as most of you do, as well. You can sit idly by and do nothing, or you can make a big commotion about it. Commotion gets noticed by specialized press. They spread it around...eventually it get's picked up by bigger press outlets...and perhaps, one day, it will be fodder for discussion and have a real world impact. The internetz have the power to make you heard by the masses. So use it. Look what the interwebs did to Sony. IT FUCKED THEM. IN THE GOATASS. Part was Sony's stubborness and bad decision making, but much of it was the little guy ranting on discussion forums just like this one.

The funny thing about these posts I'm making is that they are half-heartedly in jest, as well as being serious. Gaming is SERIOUS BUSINESS after all. But really. I'm having a fun time getting riled up about this stuff. Makes the day go by quicker at work.

OnBake Platinum
06-07-2007, 08:45 PM
Us Nintendo people want Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime, Smash bros, etc. We couldn't give two shits about games like cooking mama and Mario party 8. (ugh) Those games are for the touch generation. None of whom post around here.

rog27
06-07-2007, 08:46 PM
Who, easy know Rog. I lurk quite a bit in the Nintendo section, and I rarely see any threads discussing the glory of games like cooking mama 3.

What I'm saying is that they might not play that stuff...but they will be quick to defend it and what's it's doing to the industry because they buy into Nintendomination ;).

masteratt
06-07-2007, 08:48 PM
^You sure love over-generalisation, I suggest you hold back for the sake of the thread.

rog27
06-07-2007, 08:49 PM
Us Nintendo people want Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime, Smash bros, etc. We couldn't give two shits about games like cooking mama and Mario party 8. (ugh) Those games are for the touch generation. None of whom post around here.

I want those games too. And I'd love it if Nintendo made some new IPs as creative and awesome as the classics.

Sephiroth_VII
06-07-2007, 08:49 PM
^^Yeah, this thread could actually lead to a really good discussion, so don't overdo it and get it locked.

Diresu
06-07-2007, 08:54 PM
Personally I agree with this article. This is my biggest problem with the Wii. If it does end up keeping as much pace as it has now then it will no doubt win. That in my view is bad for the reasons he stated. It WILL shift development from hardcore to casual. Whats worse, is that it might have Sony and MS take no technological step forward at all which would effectivelly kill gaming on consoles for me. I have no issue with casual gamers but I don't want casual games to make up the majority of the market. There will always be hardcore games but will they compare in numbers to what we have now if the Wii wins? Not even close. So at this point Nintendo is effectivelly ruining the hardcore market of the videogame industry. These 2 genres of games and gamers can coexist but I doubt there will be any sort of balance if Nintendo is on top by a large margin because there simply would be no reason to stay the current course for Sony and MS. This is a very real scenario, only question is now whether the Wii will keep going or not.

rog27
06-07-2007, 08:54 PM
^You sure love over-generalisation, I suggest you hold back for the sake of the thread.

Stereo-typing is fun-tastic. Sure there are exceptions and individual taste, but there is always truth in stereotypes. The individual person may be very smart, but people in general are stupid.

The HARDCORE GAMER DEFENSE FORCE is supposed to be a light-hearted endeavor, but with a meaningful purpose. To save what we love: our hobby. Change is not bad, unless the changes repurpose the foundational elements that compose the "it". I like games. Non-games will never be games. Thus, this change is bad for me if non-games start to dominate the market.

On top of that, I like deep, story-driven games. Not just mini-games, or shallow games. Sure they are fun to pick up and play sometimes...heck, that's why we have handhelds.

VonGak
06-07-2007, 09:02 PM
If hardcore = C&C, Doom, Quake, Halo and so on then I dunno if I feel like protecting it.

And I fell in love Sony's E3 05 bathtub duck demo, if only it had been a game.

Phoenix
06-07-2007, 09:05 PM
On top of that, I like deep, story-driven games.Don't we all? But a game does not need to be story-driven to be deep or fun. There are some excellent, deep games out there that have some of the worst stories you'll ever see.

Sephiroth_VII
06-07-2007, 09:13 PM
If hardcore = C&C, Doom, Quake, Halo and so on then I dunno if I feel like protecting it.

And I fell in love Sony's E3 05 bathtub duck demo, if only it had been a game.

What's wrong with C&C!? To hell with the rest of the games you mentioned, but C&C is good.

OmniStalgic
06-07-2007, 09:18 PM
This should be in general gaming, but I understand why it's not (Though some users want to change this aspect of the forums)

However, Wii is great right now, however, a new control scheme and price doesn't make a console sell for 7 or 8 years after it releases. There is entirely nothing wrong with Wii games, in fact I think Sony will probably release a slew of games specifically made for EyeToy and PSN Sixaxis game targeting the same audience as Wii and PS2.

There is nothing wrong with the industry branching out. Having content that everyone can play is part of becoming the market leader. And MGS4, Halo, God of War, and RE type games aren't going anywhere...lol

rog27
06-07-2007, 09:24 PM
Hardcore (and Oldschool) Console Games would constitute the following examples, etc.:

Mario, Kung Fu (return dammit!), Zelda, Metroid, Kid Icarus (return dammit!), Sonic (although shitty now), Virtua Fighter, Ace Combat, Streets of Rage Series, Final Fight, Street Fighter Series, Soul Caliber, Ninja Gaiden, Devil May Cry, Gears of War, God of War, Ridge Racer, Gran Turisimo, Forza, Daytona USA, EA sports franchises and Sega Sports/2K/VC sports franchise (although mainstream now), Tekken, Ratchet and Clank, Jak & Deckter, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Splinter Cell, Metal Gear, Psyconauts, Halo, Resistance, Call of Duty, Killzone, Brothers in Arms, Medal of Honor, KOTOR, Shinobi, Too Human, Donkey Kong, Banjo and Kazooie, Resident Evil, Mortal Combat, Megaman, Dead Rising, Super Smash Bros., Rainbow Six, Ghost Recon, Assassin's Creed, Shadowrun (original), Uncharted, Tomb Raider (original), Excite Bike, Excite Truck, DOA, The Darkness, Mass Effect, Warhawk, Twisted Metal, GTA (mass appeal now), Lair, Heavenly Sword, Little Big Planet, Army of Two, Kany and Lynch, Stranglehold, Max Payne, Haze, Bioshock, Herzog Zwei, SOCOM, Afterburner, Spyhunter, ZOE, etc., etc., etc.

Among many, many others of course.

Leedogg
06-07-2007, 09:26 PM
as long as the Wii can get alot of developer support, I think they will do great this generation. And the way, to get alot of developer support is by selling alot of Wii's. Which they are doing right now. Thats one reason why the GC didn't sell to well. Not alot sold equals not as much developer support.

curryking1
06-07-2007, 09:28 PM
^^And what you are proposing is that if the Wii does super duper well, those will all disappear right? Or if those all disappear, the Wii will do super duper well, either or really.

Basically you're trying to say 'If the Wii succeeds, no big budget titles, no mature themed titles, and no action packed adventures, or awesome RPGs, or great complicated titles will ever exist again.'

I think that's really, really stupid. If the Wii was the only console on the market right now, I would wager that there is definitely, definitely still room for all the games we want, all the games that the mass market wants, and yet still even enough room for all the crappy (both complicated and simple) games as well.

Diresu
06-07-2007, 09:32 PM
Its not that they would disappear curry but they would be in the minority or at the least nowhere close to current numbers.

rog27
06-07-2007, 09:34 PM
^^And what you are proposing is that if the Wii does super duper well, those will all disappear right? Or if those all disappear, the Wii will do super duper well, either or really.

Basically you're trying to say 'If the Wii succeeds, no big budget titles, no mature themed titles, and no action packed adventures, or awesome RPGs, or great complicated titles will ever exist again.'

I think that's really, really stupid. If the Wii was the only console on the market right now, I would wager that there is definitely, definitely still room for all the games we want, all the games that the mass market wants, and yet still even enough room for all the crappy (both complicated and simple) games as well.

Read what Diseru just said ^^

F*ck it, dude. I'm not gonna lie. I'm greedy. I want the majority to be made for my tastes, and being the financeer for all the generations up to this point...I think they owe it to us.

When grandma-ma get's tired of the Wii...I hope they don't plan on crawling back to the hardcore on hands and knees. That will not be pretty.

curryking1
06-07-2007, 09:34 PM
I know, but I think that's the extremity his argument is going to. I also feel there will probably be less opportunity to make larger games, but this argument that the article is making is saying that it's like hardcore gamers will have absolutely nothing.

Like others have said, just keep liking the things you like and keep buying what you like. And who knows, maybe one day you'll like something different as well. Not everything stays the same, but I have a hard time believing that in the next ten years all the franchises and styles we like will suddenly disappear.

Because maybe the future holds this. Maybe the Wii is the way to bring in all the people who aren't gamers. And then maybe the next big idea is to make everyone into hardcore gamers and then a different style of console is suitable. Really, the balance will always be shifting back and forth. I personally believe there will always be room for both kinds of games, just maybe some years there will be a shift towards one side, the next years the other side, but generally there will always be games for everyone. The world is just too diverse and the market to diverse and the hardcore gaming market too heavily depended on at the beginning and the larger scale market at the end to make me think one will completely eclipse the other.

rog27
06-07-2007, 09:40 PM
I know, but I think that's the extremity his argument is going to. I also feel there will probably be less opportunity to make larger games, but this argument that the article is making is saying that it's like hardcore gamers will have absolutely nothing.

Like others have said, just keep liking the things you like and keep buying what you like. And who knows, maybe one day you'll like something different as well. Not everything stays the same, but I have a hard time believing that in the next ten years all the franchises and styles we like will suddenly disappear.

He even admits this in his argument. Read the whole thing. He doesn't think hardcore games will disappear completely, either. He just thinks they will no longer be the focus: devs will transition the majority of their resources to where the money is. That sucks, man. You do not want that. Trust me.

curryking1
06-07-2007, 09:45 PM
Can you quote my whole post lol, I went a bit further.

I was saying the balance will probably keep shifting, go to one side for so many years, go to the other side the next many years, until everyone is a gamer and then somewhere it will equalize. As gaming gets to the point where everyone plays videogames in the developed countries (it's going to happen), I would bet that big budget games are going to be attractive again.

I see it as a balance, and over time the balance changes, but one way or another it will finally reach an equilibrium when the market is entirely saturated. When the market is entirely saturated with gaming, I can only see the balance shifting back closer towards the hardcore gaming taste.

I'm not talking like 10 years from now, or even 15, I'm talking like a generation or almost two away basically. This is a trend for the short term (say 10 years), but I honestly feel it will not be affecting us nearly as much as people may say it will.

That's my guesstimate of what will happen in the future lol. Unless the Wii becomes so big it annihilates everything else in it's path and no one even remembers games of the type like MGS4, the scale will tip back again anways.

The Dude
06-07-2007, 10:02 PM
After reading the original post and most of the replies. I have realised what an elitist attitude some gamers have. Nintendo is reaching out to the normal everyday people. The "non-gamers" if you will. They are expanding our industry that before the Wii came out, was on the verge of stagnation. The more people that play video games, the more money game makers get to make bigger and better games. Microsfot and Sony have done NOTHING to expand the demograph of peopel that play videogames

If the game industry did not expand their user base and relied only on what you so proudly call "Hardcore gamers" the number of videogames being made would be drastically cut. Is this concept really that hard to understand? In order for "Hardcore" games to be made there needs to be more casual games sold. In other words Ford does not make money by selling the v8 supercharged Mustang Cobra, it makes money off the v6 convertible Mustang The same corellation exists in the videogame industry with "hardcore and "casual" games. The Will is nothing like the consoles before it. It is still an extreamly young system that most delevopers do not know how to make games for. I believe that some incredible games are going to be made in the Wii's life span, but just like the DS it won't happen over night


If the NES saved the world of videogames, the Wii has brought about it's renaissance

curryking1
06-07-2007, 10:07 PM
I would argue that point about Sony not expanding the userbase of gamers, but the rest of your post I basically agree with.

But I think the main thing people should be aware of, there's still room for everyone. Like dude said, Ford does sell the super charged Cobra, but they make money off the V6 model. Obviously the game business isn't exactly the same as often times people are on one project and generally there is the idea that every game must be a hit to keep on being made or whatever, but the comparison still probably has some meaning to it.

Maybe one day even casual/mainstream (I think using mainstream is an important word here, as some big hit hardcore games even make mainstream appeal) games will become less popular and hardcore games will take more of the market? Simpler 'non hardcore games' won't disappear either. There's just be a small balance shift, but nothing to really horribly affect anyone you know?

There's still plenty of room I think for a lot of coexistence. And plus, there's probably lots of 'non hardcore' games everyone here will like, and there's probably 'hardcore' games other people will like.

P.S. I don't mean to segregrate or label or whatever, I'm just using the terms for simplicity.

P.P.S. Also, this serves as a good challenge for those who make MGS and FF and whatnot. Only 2 games in my mind have surpassed a range to call themselves catering the the mainstream market as well as the hardcore, and those two games would be GTA and GT if we're talking last gen, because they had substantial success in both types of markets. Maybe the challenge for games like MGS and FF is to now make games attractive and accessible for newcomers, while of course not sacrificing the original, large userbases. Although that is quite a challenge.

BahnNZ
06-07-2007, 10:10 PM
Heheheh, I have such thoughts too but then I think of Metroid and Mario and realize Nintendo got the hardcore gamers backs too.

The problem with CliffyBro I think is that it's not Wii or any of it's games that's the main problem, the problem is that games you have to sit down and practise, or redo the same section until you get it right, in other words hardcore games, are getting rarer and rarer.

Most games on PS3, 360 and Wii are laughably easy. You get to the end and get no sense of achievement. A monkey could finish them, really.

The other problem is there's too much meetooism. Too many unoriginal WW2 bald space marine boring garbage, nothing hardcore about being unoriginal. A real hardcore guy plays something original once in a while like, I dunno... Cooking mamma on Wii. :)

The easy game problem has always been here, the root of them problem is one of storage. If you have hardly any bytes in a tiny cartridge you have to make your game as hard as hell or they'll see everything in ten minutes. You have to work to earn the next level. These days you get your next level without earning it. That's bad...

Diresu
06-07-2007, 10:11 PM
I get what you are saying Curry and there is a fair share of "if" that need to come true for the scenario the article is talking about to happen. Will the Wii keep selling as well 2 years from now, will 360/PS3 slow down or pickup sales, will big budget games be enough of a payoff for devs? There is a lot of questions but it is a very real possibility at least if you base it of the trend so far. Personally I take some solace in the fact that casual gamers are just that...casual, which means they play party games, and aren't really commited (not sure if thats the right word to use) to the gaming industry.

Software attach rate is low for casual games because you don't play wii sports for 5 hours a day every day, you play it when people come over, with family etc. Hardcore gamers buy game series, and spend their time actually playing games outside of group activities. Software attach rate will determine wii's success more then anything. Wii can sell 100 million units but if the software isn't selling then it doesn't matter. Also, not all developers like being strained by the hardware. Bottom line is that to get a game made how the developer envisioned it, takes hardware, takes technology. More you limit that technology, further you cripple your original concept. This is going to be the weakness that Wii can't shake of. If all consoles are made in the same light next-gen say Wii 2.0 then that also goes away because you have no choice in hardware, but to work with what you are given which would be similar across the board.

The balance will shift obviously because game industry shifts all the time but its a slow process in most cases. I am hoping it doesn't come to the point where its skewed in the favor of casual gaming. Casual gaming has a place on handhelds and should be the main focus there but not on home consoles. Even if 30% of all games on a console are casual, its to much in my opinion. This could also have a positive impact too if there is a coexistance. As long as devs support the other 2 systems because they are going for the hardcore market, and the wii does its thing, there will be something for everyone. Keeping that balance will be the hard part if you have a game like Cooking Mama outselling GTA.

BahnNZ
06-07-2007, 10:16 PM
I think my feeling is so called "hardcore" gamers who buy one online 3D Shooter after another are the ones who are stifling the industry, not Granny Wii. What Nintendo are doing are pumping a little originality into the industry, more than Epic/Id/Ubisoft and all the other shooter dinosaurs.

So hey, maybe he should shut the **** up and leave Granny Wii alone, she probably plays cooler **** than he does. :)

If I'm playing a game and it's mad original, it's probably associated with Nintendo in some way.

VonGak
06-07-2007, 10:21 PM
After reading the original post and most of the replies. I have realised what an elitist attitude some gamers have. Nintendo is reaching out to the normal everyday people. The "non-gamers" if you will. They are expanding our industry that before the Wii came out, was on the verge of stagnation. The more people that play video games, the more money game makers get to make bigger and better games. Microsfot and Sony have done NOTHING to expand the demograph of peopel that play videogames

If the game industry did not expand their user base and relied only on what you so proudly call "Hardcore gamers" the number of videogames being made would be drastically cut. Is this concept really that hard to understand? In order for "Hardcore" games to be made there needs to be more casual games sold. In other words Ford does not make money by selling the v8 supercharged Mustang Cobra, it makes money off the v6 convertible Mustang The same corellation exists in the videogame industry with "hardcore and "casual" games. The Will is nothing like the consoles before it. It is still an extreamly young system that most delevopers do not know how to make games for. I believe that some incredible games are going to be made in the Wii's life span, but just like the DS it won't happen over night


If the NES saved the world of videogames, the Wii has brought about it's renaissance

Do not even try to claim that SONY isn't bringing gaming to new markets because that would just be blind ignorant fanboyism.

Also Wii brought Nintendo its renaissance which it needed after having gone down hill for years, Playstation has constantly expanded its market to new areas never touched by gaming before.

curryking1
06-07-2007, 10:25 PM
Gotcha Diresu.

I agree with you, I don't want any crazy shift in balance for any amount of time either, it'd be like switching from fascist to communist with no happy medium for any time ever lol, always good to have a nice balance, I just personally don't think there will be a shift so grand that it will affect anyone in any extremely terrible way.

I did think of a good idea though. Casual gamers being the casual gamers that they are, how are they going to know which casual game is the biggest game to pick if they are indeed casuals? Won't these casual games have very average selling because of the casual markets lack of focus and direction on game purchases?

Don't casuals generally pick up whatever is on store shelves? How did last years casuals pick games? They are the reason so many PS2 games we don't even know about sold 1 million copies right?

So if the Wii is catering 80% or more to casuals, and casuals are just picking up random games, won't the biggest hits from last gen still be the biggest hits now?

Won't the most popular games as per advertising and big budgets and more 'complicated' and huge games be picked up the most either way? Won't the casual market still have the consistently spreading over of spending on various titles? Wouldn't that still make big budget games with big advertising and hardcore attraction the most exposed games to casuals to pick up also? Won't big budget, advertised on the front of the store titles still sell the most? I mean, now there will be big budget casual games, but maybe big budget current style big hit games can coexist with them as well, and then there'd be big hits for every kind of gamer.

This is just a question I thought of to ask. That's just my 'theory' lol. I dunno, I really don't see the market changing that great of a deal in either the short term or long term. You know, maybe minor shifts, but not that large shifts at all.


So hey, maybe he should shut the **** up and leave Granny Wii alone, she probably plays cooler **** than he does. :)

Hell yes lol! I see this as an opportunity for casual and simple games to experiment and come up with big things, but not necessarily a bad thing for current style big hit titles.

gozirah
06-07-2007, 10:31 PM
Asking for "hardcore gaming defense" really amounts to admitting that there exists an imbalance in the gaming industry favoring the interests the hardcore. If an untapped market exists, than its only natural that the competitive market takes advantage of that.

The issue of concern (though I'm not sure its warranted) is that the big budget decision makers artificially favor casual games, so that the hardcore market is not served. But I think that is unlikely, since serious gamers spend more money per person--- and the industry knows that. I guess you might be worried that EA will take money away from PS3 and 360 development and give it to Wii exclusives. But the gaming industry is becoming a crowed field in terms of developers, so what they're really eager to do is expand the market--not change customers. If this interest in developing casual truly does bring in new gamers, core games could have the same degree of investment-- and maybe more.

I think your real worry should be whether the industry's interest in casual will spark or stifle creativity in game design generally. But if you have developers thinking about more ways to engage gamers, then how could it be anything but positive?

Gegenki
06-07-2007, 11:03 PM
Looks like history is repeating itself to me.
I agree with alot of whats been said, Curry and Applefiend.
Theres too much emphasis being placed on the word 'hardcore' and the phrase 'big budget'. Its not at all clear what anyone really means. Curry made it good when he said big budget casual games because taht completely blurred the line.

And I too hate the idea that all these FPS games are becoming so important. I see new FPS games coming for PS3 week after week. It's like, what's going on.

Anyway as I said, History is repeating itself. Nintendo said before the release of the wii, games are getting too hard. My mum plays games and my sister will play very simple games and both of them find buttons hard to get to grips with. My mum has been playing KH2 for ages and she is still pressing wrong buttons or asking me to beat bosses or solve a puzzle because for most people, its just too damn complicated.
Originally games were for who? People who could afford it, people who had a bit of time. People played games for fun and what not. I mean, come on look at PS1 games. And then look at the top FPS out today - what? Halo or Fear or doom - i dont know. Look at the difference between the AI. Games did get harder over time. Control systems got more complicated. And I can only talk from the last 10 years and I know that. But the thing is. Nintendo are taking it right back. And because of this I think Curry is probably right. It will shift. Games will get easier for a while and then get harder again.
Many of us may not like the wii because the games are shallow and simplistic and as someone who really knows whats going on you can see 100 things wrong with the game. But the casual person isn't going to see that. When my family came round at christmas, there was a big thing playing wii bowling and wii boxing. I haven't played that thing since january. But with the current way things are going, it could easily become mainstream.
But don't worry because eventually these people are going to ask something deeper, hence tipping the scale back

Diresu
06-07-2007, 11:05 PM
Yea Curry that was pretty much my point to with the software attach rate just expanded.

Domination
06-07-2007, 11:22 PM
A weird, random...yet never-the-less inspirational...blog post appeared on N'Gai Croals game column recently. It's from Cliffy B.'s brother, but it speaks worlds to the hardcore gamer's plight as of recently. Wii is ruining our industry. We helped build it. And we shouldn't go down without a fight to mini-games and waggle-fests. Here is the orginal post (shamelessly stolen from GAF):



LINK (http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/levelup/archive/2007/06/07/i-for-one-do-not-welcome-our-new-wii-overlords.aspx)

Two lines in particular resonate with me and make me furious--

It's like suddenly discovering that business plan behind McDonald's is applicable to video games.

and

"It's like he wants us to be liked by everyone. I mean Led Zeppelin didn't write tunes everybody liked. They left that to the Bee Gees."

The games we as tactful hardcore gamers like are the masterpieces, the art, the classics...the 5 star restaurants persay. Our landscape is a beautiful one. But here comes the mass-media and mass-market roaring down our path telling us that we now need to address the needs of grandma-ma. F*ck that. Fine, you can make some games for grandma, but if that's going to lead to the McDonaldism of an industry that's already F'd up...screw it.

It's now time for the creation of the "HARDCORE GAMER DEFENSE FORCE"! We need a logo...someone whip out their awesome photoshop/animated gif skills.

Let's put it this way: if those developers are steadily abandoning the cutting edge technolgy just to make a quick buck on a simple little game for the Wii, then they have no right to complain about where this industry is headed. It is THEY who are behind the wheel of the car, not the consumer.

Gegenki
06-07-2007, 11:30 PM
Domination thats like saying that because I am a fish, I can make the school go where I want it too. The worry is ending up being on your own and losing out, eventually being eaten by the loan shark

The Dude
06-07-2007, 11:40 PM
Do not even try to claim that SONY isn't bringing gaming to new markets because that would just be blind ignorant fanboyism.


I didn't say that, I said Sony has done nothing to expand the demograph of gamers. That's very different then expanding markets.

Domination
06-07-2007, 11:46 PM
Domination thats like saying that because I am a fish, I can make the school go where I want it too. The worry is ending up being on your own and losing out, eventually being eaten by the loan shark

Don't get me wrong, I personally see the Wii as an awesome, innovative console, but I've notice that there are a number of complaints on how complicated the other consoles are by these same developers, thus leading to those platforms getting the stiff boot and the Wii platform getting exclusives. My point of view is, if you aren't willing to put in any effort to get results from the advance platforms or even support it, then you have no reason to complain about where the industry is headed.

curryking1
06-07-2007, 11:47 PM
^^Off topic, but I think Sony, to at least some extent, expanded the demograph. Well maybe not very much in particular expanded the age range very much, but they did do an at least recognizable something something to appeal to the the groups already in the normal demographics that were less targeted before.

Maybe not target or much less expand like the Wii is and probably will continue to do, but I think the PS2 made great strides especially with the EyeToy and Singstar on the PS2. Like... for what Sony was expected to do with the PS2, they made some pretty nice moves on that front, maybe nothing super major, but nice moves.

woundingchaney
06-07-2007, 11:50 PM
Let's put it this way: if those developers are steadily abandoning the cutting edge technolgy just to make a quick buck on a simple little game for the Wii, then they have no right to complain about where this industry is headed. It is THEY who are behind the wheel of the car, not the consumer.

I would disagree. Consumers depict demand and publishers are the suppliers, if there is a growing demand for the more simplistic titles then this demand must be supplied by the publishers. This is easily seen by the gaming genre "jumps"; currently nearly half of the released titles are fps while in the 90s there was a slew of fighting games on the market. One could say that the demand is driven by the release of titles but I believe that the release of titles is intended to meet the demands/wants of the consumer base. I believe consumers are depicting everything with their purchases unfortunately it is the same consumers that are crying because a game costs 60 usd, a console is 400-600 usd, they go out and buy used titles, they feel betrayed if a title doesnt reach this unknown bar of "next gen", blockbusters and gameflys are eating into purchases, or heaven forbid a once exclusive title is going mulit-pl., the hardcore consumers are becoming more and more finnicky in thier purchases (as they should be). As a business a publisher cannot repeatedly release a multi million dollar budgeted game to the public only for it to fall on deaf ears, while they released a 4 month 50,000 dollar Fat Momma title on the Wii for it to sell like crazy (only a scenario). Gaming is becoming a very large initial investment for many publishers and this is breaking many houses. If it is proven that there is a very large "casual gaming" public to address that will buy games they must be addressed and can be addressed quicker and cheaper than the "finnicky" hardcore segment.

I believe that consumers have and will continue to depict the course of gaming with publishers only feeding their/our wants. The question is what portion of the consumer base is going to be the more lucrative for publishers to endorse?? Many of the next gen aspects really arent targeting a large segment of the consumer base. After all who really games in HD, how many people own surround sound setups, how many have broadband connections, or want to game online, etc?? (Valve very recently had a poll on what pc gamers use in terms of hardware and it was rather eye opening (at least for me)).

If anything the wants of the hardcore/mainstream gamer has been traditionally catered to. If Nin. brings about this large segment of traditional non-gamers to the market then I can very easily see publishers splitting their resources to support both gaming lifestyles.

curryking1
06-07-2007, 11:59 PM
Depict? Dictate ;)

Domination
06-08-2007, 12:01 AM
I would disagree. Consumers depict demand and publishers are the suppliers, if there is a growing demand for the more simplistic titles then this demand must be supplied by the publishers. This is easily seen by the gaming genre "jumps"; currently nearly half of the released titles are fps while in the 90s there was a slew of fighting games on the market. One could say that the demand is driven by the release of titles but I believe that the release of titles is intended to meet the demands/wants of the consumer base. I believe consumers are depicting everything with their purchases unfortunately it is the same consumers that are crying because a game costs 60 usd, a console is 400-600 usd, they go out and buy used titles, they feel betrayed if a title doesnt reach this unknown bar of "next gen", blockbusters and gameflys are eating into purchases, or heaven forbid a once exclusive title is going mulit-pl., the hardcore consumers are becoming more and more finnicky in thier purchases (as they should be). As a business a publisher cannot repeatedly release a multi million dollar budgeted game to the public only for it to fall on deaf ears, while they released a 4 month 50,000 dollar Fat Momma title on the Wii for it to sell like crazy (only a scenario). Gaming is becoming a very large initial investment for many publishers and this is breaking many houses. If it is proven that there is a very large "casual gaming" public to address that will buy games they must be addressed and can be addressed quicker and cheaper than the "finnicky" hardcore segment.

I believe that consumers have and will continue to depict the course of gaming with publishers only feeding their/our wants. The question is what portion of the consumer base is going to be the more lucrative for publishers to endorse?? Many of the next gen aspects really arent targeting a large segment of the consumer base. After all who really games in HD, how many people own surround sound setups, how many have broadband connections, or want to game online, etc?? (Valve very recently had a poll on what pc gamers use in terms of hardware and it was rather eye opening (at least for me)).

If anything the wants of the hardcore/mainstream gamer has been traditionally catered to. If Nin. brings about this large segment of traditional non-gamers to the market then I can very easily see publishers splitting their resources to support both gaming lifestyles.

I completely understand where you are going with that, but isn't this where online usually plays a part to these types of games?

woundingchaney
06-08-2007, 12:05 AM
Depict? Dictate ;)
Perhaps your terminology is better amigo. :)


I completely understand where you are going with that, but isn't this where online usually plays a part to these types of games?
Im not sure what you are stating Dom. ?? If your talking about online gameplay offering a very large replay value to titles and in turn making many titles much more reasonable purchases for consumers then I would agree.

Domination
06-08-2007, 12:15 AM
Perhaps your terminology is better amigo. :)


Im not sure what you are stating Dom. ?? If your talking about online gameplay offering a very large replay value to titles and in turn making many titles much more reasonable purchases for consumers then I would agree.


That's exactly what I'm talking about. For the sake of these developers and others much smaller, it is being made more convenient for them to build cheaper titles like this and make a greater profit off them. Yet, I see these same developers complaining more than they are putting in the effort to push towards that evolution.

Gegenki
06-08-2007, 12:33 AM
^
hehe its true. The ones that are making a difference are the ones that say. 'We've had challenges working to make this game, but we did it because it was fun'
- Choose the job you love, over the one you like and will eventually get bored with (oh wait, thats a job in general isn't it?)

woundingchaney
06-08-2007, 12:39 AM
That's exactly what I'm talking about. For the sake of these developers and others much smaller, it is being made more convenient for them to build cheaper titles like this and make a greater profit off them. Yet, I see these same developers complaining more than they are putting in the effort to push towards that evolution.

I dont know. I agree to an extent. I take it your speaking on the difficulty associated with "next gen" development. If anything I can very easily respect and relate to their situation. Even being outside of the development business and I can understand/relate to how frustrating and burdening programing for entirely new architecture and meeting the demands of the gaming public can be and I could see how that would affect the statements of developers (after all they are only people). Im sure that if time and budget wasnt issues that many developers would love to make their games the latest and greatest although them being the drones/workers of the industry I wouldnt doubt that much of this burden rests on their shoulders. After all who expects a man that is putting in 16 hour days for months to be relieved or even hospitable in his statements regarding a new/foreign architecture. I can only imagine what I would have to say about my damn engineering department after they tell me to build a road on top of an archaic and dilapidated sewer/drainage network (for the thousandth time). I wouldnt doubt that much of the development community feels as the others do there is just a dramatic difference in the professionalism and direction of their statements, I also think that there is dramatically different amounts of freedoms associated with developers depending on which publisher they are working for.

If anything I would rather developers tell me what they truly think outside of this PR nonsense. Hell if Gabe N. thinks the PS3 is a train wreck and the 360 is gimped thats cool just tell me why (its not as if Im going to take this personally). If Itagaki thinks that NG2 is going to be the best thing since cotton candy then prove it. I would like to know some of the issues resulting in Epic and Facor 5's console cheerleading etc, etc, etc.
--(these are only examples)

I also think there is a very accessible market on the PS3 and 360 for smaller/cheaper titles. Looking at the Live arcade and Sonys PSN games. In the future these could reach very impressive selling figures. I think this would even be better expanded to larger releases like the R* Table Tennis at 30 usd, and other such titles. Give me an online only Warhawk for 40, give me episodic content, give me an enjoyable experience but make the entry cost relative to the worth of the title (something I think the industry marketing is missing, take Shadowrun for instance).


hehe its true. The ones that are making a difference are the ones that say. 'We've had challenges working to make this game, but we did it because it was fun'
- Choose the job you love, over the one you like and will eventually get bored with (oh wait, thats a job in general isn't it?)

While I would agree Gengeki I think that overall this concept may be a bit utopian. Every "job" in the world has its burdens and despite one's love or interest in their field there are times when any profession is little more than a hassle.

VonGak
06-08-2007, 05:02 AM
I didn't say that, I said Sony has done nothing to expand the demograph of gamers. That's very different then expanding markets.

And as I stated that's a completely ignorant claim.

GT, SingStar, Papa the Rapper, various Eye Toy products, Buzz! and so on have done what you claim only Nintendo has done.

Also not ruin your :cloud9: but you completely overlook the reports about the Wii main audience being former GC owners or men in the same age group.

EDIT: G'morning everyone.

tien69
06-08-2007, 05:15 AM
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I have never read so much bullshit in my life.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After reading the original post and most of the replies. I have realised what an elitist attitude some gamers have. Nintendo is reaching out to the normal everyday people. The "non-gamers" if you will. They are expanding our industry that before the Wii came out, was on the verge of stagnation. The more people that play video games, the more money game makers get to make bigger and better games. Microsfot and Sony have done NOTHING to expand the demograph of peopel that play videogames

If the game industry did not expand their user base and relied only on what you so proudly call "Hardcore gamers" the number of videogames being made would be drastically cut. Is this concept really that hard to understand? In order for "Hardcore" games to be made there needs to be more casual games sold. In other words Ford does not make money by selling the v8 supercharged Mustang Cobra, it makes money off the v6 convertible Mustang The same corellation exists in the videogame industry with "hardcore and "casual" games. The Will is nothing like the consoles before it. It is still an extreamly young system that most delevopers do not know how to make games for. I believe that some incredible games are going to be made in the Wii's life span, but just like the DS it won't happen over night



WOW, okay , expanding MARKETS and DEMOGRAPHS. Hell, if you want to throw down there, we can do this, you will lose, simple as that. DO not make Nintendo out to be some saint. For your information, the DS was a quick brainstorm idea(and nintendo if you do not know sets aside money in case they need to bring out a new console very quickly) to answer the PSP, with great sucess , which I have yet to figure. The Wii-mote, was a saving throw DUDE, all it is. Nintendo was going to bring out a more powerful console, but looking at the Gamecube. A lesser approach was needed. They are no rennaisance, by any means. Or maybe you do not know about their Gestapo-like tactics, before SONY came on the scene. You want to talk STAGNATION, please. This is real man, do some research and think some more before you bellow with the crap.

Phoenix
06-08-2007, 05:20 AM
WOW, okay , expanding MARKETS and DEMOGRAPHS. Hell, if you want to throw down there, we can do this, you will lose, simple as that. DO not make Nintendo out to be some saint. For your information, the DS was a quick brainstorm idea(and nintendo if you do not know sets aside money in case they need to bring out a new console very quickly) to answer the PSP, with great sucess , which I have yet to figure. The Wii-mote, was a saving throw DUDE, all it is. Nintendo was going to bring out a more powerful console, but looking at the Gamecube. A lesser approach was needed. They are no rennaisance, by any means. Or maybe you do not know about their Gestapo-like tactics, before SONY came on the scene. You want to talk STAGNATION, please. This is real man, do some research and think some more before you bellow with the crap.The DS was a response to the PSP? I find that odd, because if Nintendo "responded" to every time a major electronics company released a handheld, GameBoy would make Final Fantasy look like a trilogy.

And coming from someone who is telling someone else to do some research, there are a whole lot of opinions in that post.

purchaser
06-08-2007, 08:30 AM
"It's like he wants us to be liked by everyone. I mean Led Zeppelin didn't write tunes everybody liked. They left that to the Bee Gees."

That's the fact. The developers realized it's easier to create a game for the casual gamers for 20,000 $ than a nextgen for 20 million $. Maybe it's going to regulate in the future an we'll get our hard core games back but there's really the chance it will never happen again. It's the time to defend the nextgen before the last developer goes pokemon.
Just read at bloomberg microsoft wants more family games... Here it goes.

BahnNZ
06-08-2007, 08:57 AM
You know my first thought when hearing about CliffyBro's distaste for Granny Wiis was to check up on OGHC.

http://oghc.blogspot.com/

She got the three rings of death, oh my gawd! :)

NickSCFC
06-08-2007, 09:13 AM
Wii is great though, Nintendo seem like th eonly ones bothered about enhancing pure gameplay. Sony and Microsoft want to turn games into movies.

masonite
06-08-2007, 09:23 AM
Wii is great though, Nintendo seem like th eonly ones bothered about enhancing pure gameplay. Sony and Microsoft want to turn games into movies.

Just out of curiosity, are you saying "pure gameplay" can only be enhanced by motion control?

yoshaw
06-08-2007, 09:56 AM
You know my first thought when hearing about CliffyBro's distaste for Granny Wiis was to check up on OGHC.

http://oghc.blogspot.com/

She got the three rings of death, oh my gawd! :)

LMAO!!!!

Derrick Barra
06-08-2007, 10:28 AM
The DS was a response to the PSP? I find that odd, because if Nintendo "responded" to every time a major electronics company released a handheld, GameBoy would make Final Fantasy look like a trilogy.

And coming from someone who is telling someone else to do some research, there are a whole lot of opinions in that post.

Remember when the DS was announced and was getting trampled under the popularity of the PSP in the beggining? What he's saying is that Nintendo was using the "three pillar strategy" (a.k.a if the DS fails we still have the Gameboy) to ensure that if Nintendo's casual gamer test (Nintendogs and such) failed that it would be because the DS was a rushed product and was just to "Tide you over" until the Gameboy came out to give the PSP some competition.

And he's saying that the PSP was the first real threat to Nintendo's handheld dominance, couple it's looming presence and the dismal Gamecube sales and you've got a company that would be willing to try anything to get back on top (a.k.a take the biggest risks).

Just remember that the Wii-mote was originally intended to extend the life of the Gamecube as an attachment, but technology and sales numbers led the company to keep it's power in hiding for use in a later system as a selling point. I'm sure there are plenty of things Nintendo develops and keeps hidden in order to release it later as a selling point for another system.

Just out of curiosity, are you saying "pure gameplay" can only be enhanced by motion control?

Seriously, like masonite said, what happened to online play, a more visceral experience through graphics/audio, gamerscore, Home/Xbox Live, Media Center integration, Downloadable content, Game Demos, Downloadable movies, and HD content as being Gameplay enhancements? Why is it that only Waggle controls are included? Even if you consider the innovations I listed to enhance your overall experience through something else besides pure gameplay (Because most of the things I said to improve gameplay) then why are they any less important?

One thing nobody has mentioned yet is the innacuracy of waggle controls this generation. Seriously not even Nintendo themselves can get it right 100% of the time in their AAA games. To me accuracy is more important that waggle, but from a business perspective the priority is flipped due to waggle's popularity at the moment. Ever play Mario Party 8? Half the time the waggle controls are trash and you wish that the developer would just let you play with the D-pad.

gibmonster
06-08-2007, 11:16 AM
Wii is great though, Nintendo seem like th eonly ones bothered about enhancing pure gameplay. Sony and Microsoft want to turn games into movies.

I don't see anything wrong with turning games into interactive movies, it's not like it's being done with all their games, and to the point where you are sitting through hours of cutscenes, only touching the control pad every once in a while. I do like well written stories with my games. For me, it provides a memorable and immersive experience on more levels than just gameplay alone. A long time ago people were talking about interactive TV where you can decide outcomes of a show and what not. Well Videogames are interactive television only much, much better.

Nintendo does seem to rely on things such as motion control to sell their console as they do not have or do not want to spend the resources on other areas. I'm glad that there are journalists out there who are also starting to see this. Games looking like PS2 games with horrible motion controls, or rehashes of old nintendo games relying on character from old IP's...They kinda stagnate themselves.

Ofcourse, given the nature of a lot of multiplayer games being FPS titles. Multi-player for a lot of those titles does not equate to replay value for me (because their multi-player experiences are pretty similar)..but that's just me. I do not agree that motion controls are the only means for adding replay value...that notion is silly.

PS- This does not mean I agree with the article in the OP. IMO he is over- reacting.

NickSCFC
06-08-2007, 12:06 PM
Just out of curiosity, are you saying "pure gameplay" can only be enhanced by motion control?

No, PS has done alot of things like EyeToy, they need to build on that now. I'm more of an arcade game person, so I like my games simple, but original.

Segitz
06-08-2007, 12:24 PM
Phew, much (good) discussion and much read... Sadly, I am impatient enough to just fly over many posts.

But now a little history lesson, that some of you touched.

Remember the Amiga and the C64 back in the late 80s and early 90s? Most games were what we today call minigames. You could play thru nearly every game in less than an hour (if you were skilled enough that is). Back then, I was a hardcore gamer at heart. Most if not allof my money went into games and model building (RC cars and all that stuff). There were only some longer games with multiple discs (games like Indiana Jones or Monkey Island for example, or the lesser known like Valhalla or Heimdall), yet these games were some of the best selling games back in time.

Today, I fear the gaming industry goes down (if the Wii stays as successful as it is at the moment) the same path the movie and music industry went. No real original titles, but masses of mainstream crap that sells like fresh pretzels (sort of the EA approach with even LESS original IPs). The MI and FI are suffering for this since the end of the 90s for the path they have chosen.


And to someone (The Dude I think it was). You said, the gaming industry was on the verge of stagnation. This is in NO WAY the case. Last year (2006) was the biggest year in gaming ever. They had like a 7 or more percent rise in sales and profit. The usual business trend follows the economical cycle (theres always a little stagnation every now and then, and this is mandatory for our capitalist society, or else the amount of money in circulation would not suffice, hence interest would fly skyhigh etc...).


But theres not only black and white. Even in the movie industry, there are higher profile movies, that cater for the hardcore <insert genre here> film
watcher. Same goes for the music industry. I only fear, that as those mainstream games are pretty cheap to make, that the high profile games that will still survive, will be done even cheaper to not have to high risks of not selling. Then games like GoW or HS will never be made again (also count out the FFs, the GTAs and whatnot).


And now to my final part of my essay. Does anyone know, how much those Wii games sell? I mean, how high are the attach rates and sales numbers of those Cooking Mamas and Wii Plays? And putting those sale rates into perspective of consoles sold. I am still not sold on the whole "the Wii gathers non-gamers into gaming". I cannot imagine anyone older than my brother (30, he has a GC and is really pissed, that this console doesnt have many games... He plays more with my old PS2 than his own GC) even thinking about getting a gaming console (like my mum or such). He and his GF (about my age, see above) love the Singstars and Buzzes that Sony brings. And this is, why I think, Sony will not die a slow death in the console business. They cater greatly for the casual gamer with their games (which I find strange, that EA or UBI dont do this. Theres no such thing as a Buzz or Eyetoy game from these companys)

yoshaw
06-08-2007, 12:39 PM
Sorry to have skipped posts n selfishly induce mine into the mix. But here's my two cents anyway, read em or skip em, your choice.


a) If I wanted to wiggle around my Real Life Tennis equipment or whatever like Bill Gates mentioned in a recent interview. I'd not play video games god dangit, I'll actually go OUTSIDE n smell fresh air in the courts, not break 10 objects in my living room.

b) Wii is all nice n dandy with vgame recognition spread amongst non-gamers. All well n good but I find it a genuine concern for publishers to lose interest in full fledged games n concentrate of quick cashing mini-game-fest titles. Sounds totally happening on the Wii front at the moment. Not a Wii gamer but I can recall 3 names right from the tip of my tongue that fit this description. Wario Ware, Rayman Rabbids and Wii Play. Could there be more coming? God knows but hope this won't become trend among developers. I want my mini-games inside a full blown game, not on a seperate disc for full price.

Generosity of God
06-08-2007, 02:17 PM
all i can see are selfish elitist gamers who are overreacting.

if you all would just relax and take a clear look, publishers arent abandoning gamers and replacing our games with software for the expanded audience.

for every team created to work on expanded audience software you very much likely still have 15-20 teams developing the games we like.

Konami didnt take away resources from MGS4 to use them on Elebits and Dewey's Adventure.

Ubisoft didnt take away from GRAW when making Rayman Raving Rabbids.

there will still be the great hardcore games. there will be new great hardcore IPs. Crytek, Bungie, Team Ninja, Epic, etc arent going to abandon their development styles to make expanded audience software. the Metal Gears, Final Fantasies, Gods of War, Halos, Ghost Recons, Rainbow Sixes, Splinter Cells, Princes of Persia, Unreal Tournaments, Battlefields, Gears of Wars, Resident Evils, etc will still sell their millions.

Segitz
06-08-2007, 03:06 PM
Sorry to have skipped posts n selfishly induce mine into the mix. But here's my two cents anyway, read em or skip em, your choice.


a) If I wanted to wiggle around my Real Life Tennis equipment or whatever like Bill Gates mentioned in a recent interview. I'd not play video games god dangit, I'll actually go OUTSIDE n smell fresh air in the courts, not break 10 objects in my living room.

b) Wii is all nice n dandy with vgame recognition spread amongst non-gamers. All well n good but I find it a genuine concern for publishers to lose interest in full fledged games n concentrate of quick cashing mini-game-fest titles. Sounds totally happening on the Wii front at the moment. Not a Wii gamer but I can recall 3 names right from the tip of my tongue that fit this description. Wario Ware, Rayman Rabbids and Wii Play. Could there be more coming? God knows but hope this won't become trend among developers. I want my mini-games inside a full blown game, not on a seperate disc for full price.

FULL ACK, but

Theres other stuff, you cannot just go outside to do. Like Baseball or some other team sports, were you need a certain amount of people to have a good game (I love icehocky, but my "outside hinche" (dictionairy, muscle at the outside of the ankle, is "fscked" up, so I cannot play anymore).

Gaul
06-08-2007, 03:21 PM
But ultimately, going more mainstream can have unintended consequences--ones that could negatively impact the breadth and depth of the kinds of games that I love, as do millions of others.

Right There.
Those millions of gamers arent going to switch over to the mini-game nintendo stuff. They are staying right where they are. Sure their may be a large mass of new gamers who are getting addicted to the new games, but all the original hardcore gamers are here for hardcore games, and always will be. Its never going to die out. I don't think the business is going to be overthrown by grannies.

VonGak
06-08-2007, 03:48 PM
all i can see are selfish elitist gamers who are overreacting.

if you all would just relax and take a clear look, publishers arent abandoning gamers and replacing our games with software for the expanded audience.

for every team created to work on expanded audience software you very much likely still have 15-20 teams developing the games we like.

Konami didnt take away resources from MGS4 to use them on Elebits and Dewey's Adventure.

Ubisoft didnt take away from GRAW when making Rayman Raving Rabbids.

there will still be the great hardcore games. there will be new great hardcore IPs. Crytek, Bungie, Team Ninja, Epic, etc arent going to abandon their development styles to make expanded audience software. the Metal Gears, Final Fantasies, Gods of War, Halos, Ghost Recons, Rainbow Sixes, Splinter Cells, Princes of Persia, Unreal Tournaments, Battlefields, Gears of Wars, Resident Evils, etc will still sell their millions.

Well I bet most people on this board agree with you, it's not like SONY doesn't make these kind of games too... actually they are all over the place and many of us are quite hyped for some of these titles.

Also these smaller games PSN/Wii opens the doors for garage developers who sadly have been out in the rain for too long so te can compete on equal footing with major studios.
And it's not like anyone can make a great multi-million selling title just because it's low budget, there's still a need for good unique ideas or else the developer just end up burned.

---

A bit OT but shouldn't this thread be moved to the general gaming discussion because here it will most likely just end up as a SONY vs Nintendo debate which is just wrong.

NickSCFC
06-08-2007, 03:55 PM
Right There.
Those millions of gamers arent going to switch over to the mini-game nintendo stuff. They are staying right where they are. Sure their may be a large mass of new gamers who are getting addicted to the new games, but all the original hardcore gamers are here for hardcore games, and always will be. Its never going to die out. I don't think the business is going to be overthrown by grannies.

Exactly, Wii is all about attracting NEW people to video games, the people who never cared before, just like Sony did with the original PlayStation in 1995.

Anyone who thinks this isn't great for the industry is an idiot!

qzak
06-08-2007, 04:45 PM
Anyone who thinks this isn't great for the industry is an idiot!

Careful. You just labeled a lot of smart people. While I tend to agree the sky isn't falling, we're talking about the future here. There are legitimate reasons to be concerned, and your version of how it's going to turn out isn't any better than anyone else's.



I share some level of concern that the gaming market will get watered down. But maybe we can think about this a bit differently. Some posts allude to what I'm saying here, but hopefully I can be more direct.


First, I think everyone realizes that there's a large potential for growth to be had by expanding the market. But growth comes on top of what already was a huge business. Before the Wii came out, the news articles came out like this (I'm summarizing by what I recall):

1. Game industry huge and growing, bigger than movie industry
2. Gaming not for kids anymore; more older people game now than ever before.
3. Costs of developing games for the new consoles are getting too big due to need for advanced audio, artistry, textures, etc.

It was already recognized that gaming was becoming mainstream, before the Wii. And Sony deserves a good portion of credit for that. What the Wii may do is take a multibillion dollar industry and grow it even more. And games will come out to attract mainstream audiences; but, as someone mentioned above, those audiences will pay near full price for these. It will bring more money in, and grow the industry at even a higher rate.

It may also subsidize the creation of higher-end games that right now are daunting to make. It's just like the car company analogy given above.


The gaming industry isn't so foolish to move all its resources to casual gamers. Sure, more development in that arena may create more revenue. But that revenue may offset the cost of creation of blockbusters. Remember, this is a billion-dollar industry that they're building upon. Looking at growth sectors doesn't necessarily mean that the core gets ignored. And even if they do, as curry said above, the pendulum will swing the other way. All of the sudden someone will make a huge, indepth, engrossing game that becomes a megahit. And everyone in the industry will say "shit! we've been making these cheeseball minihits, and we missed the boat" and then jump on the bandwagon.

And when they do, the fact that there is more talent in the talent pool (more of those folks working on games) makes it easier to accomplish.

So I agree with some others here - while this is a legitimate concern, in the end it may even help rather than weaken the core gamer market.

Phoenix
06-08-2007, 08:34 PM
The quick, "touch generation" games may make companies quick money, but the bigger companies can't maximize their profits without the Final Fantasies and Marios and Metal Gear Solids. As things stand now, the industry is expanding, not shifting. The games for supercasual gamers and non-gamers are not taking the place of the games for casual and hardcore gamers, they are just being made in addition to them, and there are no signs of this changing right now.

Khaos
06-09-2007, 06:20 PM
I'm not going to be bothered to read this whole thread as all I see is people bashing the Wii because it is supposedly killing their 'hardcore' games. Talk about an illogical and weak argument. Casual games are NOT new, guys. They exist everywhere, and the PS2 had a whole lot of them. If you want to blame something for the 'occurence' of these casual games, blame the company that made gaming even more mainstream: Sony.

Phoenix is dead on. The industry is definitely not shifting, it is expanding. As people who buy a Wii for casual games play it, their focus will ineviteably shift into the more 'hardcore' games. Someone originally buys it for Wii Sports and for playing with friends, but I can totally predict that they will see some titles that interest them and purchase and play them alone.

So, if anything, casual games are helping the gaming industry greatly, giving it a whole amount of new gamers who will most likely move into more 'hardcore' games with time.

Phoenix
06-09-2007, 07:13 PM
If there's anything you can count on from Nintendo, it's that what they do is what they believe to be best for the industry. While this may sound like I'm making Nintendo out to be some saintly company, think about it for a minute. Nintendo does only one thing: make video games. Nintendo can not allow the industry to shrivel up and die like it did before the NES, because if the industry dies, Nintendo dies with it. Sony and Microsoft lack this ambition of preservation because, unlike Nintendo, if they see the industry dying, they can just pull out and continue making other electronics.

masteratt
06-09-2007, 07:16 PM
Well not really.
PlayStation is Sony's biggest income and actually helps them with other Sony projects.

curryking1
06-09-2007, 08:00 PM
If there's anything you can count on from Nintendo, it's that what they do is what they believe to be best for the industry.

I know what you said after lol, you don't mean to make it sound like Nintendo is some saintly company lol.

But everyone's trying to shape the industry into the way they believe they will thrive in the most themselves, or basically just deliver the product that will bring the best returns. That's why MS and Sony are so inclined on making multimedia rich consoles because they have those other branches of them that will reap the rewards if those are successful. They are all just trying to shape and build the environment so it will be best suited for themselves.

Just because Ninty makes only videogames doesn't make their end goal any different from Sony or MS. And Sony and MS don't want to preserve the industry. They just want to move it into a different direction than Nintendo, because said direction will be better for MS and Sony.

MS and Sony don't see the industry dying, they just see a possible change that may threaten their bottom line, and I guarantee you, they will try to adjust their strategies if they have to. The videogames business isn't one that MS or Sony are anywhere close to willing to pull out of, they have a crapload of investment for the future in the business, just like Nintendo.

Sony can just pull out of videogames? Not likely, they've spent so much on their prospect of the next 5 years in videogames that they were willing to have a 2 billion dollar loss on the whole thing.

Phoenix
06-09-2007, 08:06 PM
Right, but Nintendo's direction is more pure to the cause of gaming, because what will in the end make Nintendo more money is much more likely to be about the games than the others. While it can be argued by some that their goals for the industry aren't the best, Nintendo is the only of the big three that you can count on not steering the focus away from games, because it's all they have.

curryking1
06-09-2007, 08:08 PM
What is pure? What does that even mean? Nothing is 'pure' gaming. It's just two directions. Is Mario more pure gaming than Halo multiplayer? Is Red Steel more pure FPS than Timesplitters?

I'm only arguing with your pure claim. I do agree their focus is on games, and I do agree that probably won't change for a while because they are a gaming business exclusively, but I don't really like this 'pure to the cause of gaming' clause.

Phoenix
06-09-2007, 08:14 PM
As I use it, pure is games rather than multimedia or other forms of entertainment that the industry may turn into. Mario, TimeSplitters, Halo and Red Steel are all equally pure in the sense I am using the word, since they are all 100% games.

curryking1
06-09-2007, 08:31 PM
Ok, then I would just say, I dunno, differently or not, that they all then have the equal capacity to make 'pure' games though lol. I mean, they are all still making games.

I just don't like the description of pure, because maybe the defacto gaming experience will be defined as something that is both in and outside of games in the future compared to what is the default game experience today.

Is Nintendo being unpure for the sake of gaming to have internet access of the DS? Maybe that will become a default part of gaming and be defined as 'pure' gaming in the future you know? Like maybe 2 years ago some people might've called messaging during gameplay (from people outside the game) 'unpure' no, because it would be disruptive? That's why I'm uncomfortable with the idea of 'pure' gaming, it allows for less opportunity for change or to modify an existing formula.

Another example would be like some finding Ventrilo or voice messaging over MSN during games kind of disruptive. But somewhere down the line, it got quite commonplace and effective and part of some types of gaming. Like who would imagine talking on the phone to someone far away a long time ago while playing Warcraft. But then it came in another form as Ventrilo which is now used a lot for teamwork and gameplay, it's like the technology and the underlying, new idea was annexed by the game.

Like maybe not all changes or additions or whatever are so obvious or even positive, but saying 'pure' of something is like not allowing for change. Like next year's pure could be totally different from what is 'pure' or more commonplace today.

NickSCFC
06-10-2007, 11:46 AM
Pure =

Original, fun game play
No distracting graphics
No distracting sound
No time-wasting story lines