720P the sweetspot for THE BEST GRAPHICS that does not fill Sony's pockets!

[makeitlookreal]

In my opinion 720P is the perfect sweetspot for HD games this generation. It's high definition enough so you can see more data on the screen, but not so ridiculously high like 1080P that games will have to be reduced in graphical quality. Basically, it takes many more computing resources to make a 1080P game than a 720P game. By sticking to the sweetspot of 720P you can get optimal graphics, a very good resolution, and more than 1% of the population will be able to play your game at it's optimal resolution.

1080P gaming is just an excuse for Sony to try and make people purchase more of their televisions. Now, I like Sony in a lot of ways and think they are a good company. In a business sense they are doing the right thing by using the PS3 to push other products they can make a profit from. However, we as consumers have to realize they are looking after themselves and we have to look out for ourselves. They are out there to make money, and by them putting pressure on developers to make 1080P games they are simply reducing the graphical quality of games and at the same time trying to pressure us into buying 1080P televisions.

Basically, I say that we need to let our voice be heard that we don't care for 1080P games. If someone wants to view a game in 1080P the truth is that many sets or the PS3 itself will be able to UPSCALE the image! But the actual games themselves need to remain at 720P.

Now, I want to say for the record that I'm not trying to portray that 1080P games will look bad. I think they will look very good. However, the absolute fact is they take up many more graphical resources, take up more memory, and force developers to push many more pixels. By keeping a game at 720P it can look very significantly BETTER than 1080P.

It really comes down to this. Most people these days still have STANDARD definition TVs. A few people have 720P capable HD TVs. But only a tiny, itty bitty percentage of people have 1080P.

What we need to politely and respectfully demand is that Sony stop pressuring their developers to produce games at 1080P and allow them to use their own best judgement as to what would be the optimal resolution for their game. If they on their own *want* to produce a 1080P game that's fine, but I doubt many would do so unless it is due to pressure from Sony. Because if your trying to make the most impressive game possibly why make one that's only going to be viewed by 1% or less of the population!!!

Sony can save 1080P for the PS4. By then a SIGNIFICANT portion of gamers will have television sets that can view that resolution. Until then lets make it be known that we want Sony to quit demanding 1080P, because the SWEETSPOT for HD this generation is 720P!

[Nameless]

Yoshaw, it was your suggestion that he create this damn thread... :doh:
Hopefully it will fall like a brick off the front page. :closed:

[yoshaw]

Yoshaw, it was your suggestion that he create this damn thread... :doh:
Hopefully it will fall like a brick off the front page. :closed:

:dazed: my bad!

[makeitlookreal]

No, I think this thread is very appropriate. For example, how many of YOU own or will own a 1080P television by the time the PS3 comes out? Also, how many of you would rather be able to see fantastic games on your current 720P HD TV (if you even have one) instead of having to go out and speed $1000 or more to upgrade to 1080P?

This is an honest and sincere question.

[xbdestroya]

Guys, c'mon...

Anyway I agree, 720p is the sweetspot this gen.

[masteratt]

In my opinion 720P is the perfect sweetspot for HD games this generation. It's high definition enough so you can see more data on the screen, but not so ridiculously high like 1080P that games will have to be reduced in graphical quality. Basically, it takes many more computing resources to make a 1080P game than a 720P game. By sticking to the sweetspot of 720P you can get optimal graphics, a very good resolution, and more than 1% of the population will be able to play your game at it's optimal resolution.
Who is to say 1080p is hard to do. We only "know" this becaus X360 set the standards. If SEGA can produce 1080p on PS3 from day one, so will many other "well off" developers and I don't think there needs to be much graphical sacrifice at all (nameless replied in another thread as to why not).


1080P gaming is just an excuse for Sony to try and make people purchase more of their televisions. Now, I like Sony in a lot of ways and think they are a good company. In a business sense they are doing the right thing by using the PS3 to push other products they can make a profit from. However, we as consumers have to realize they are looking after themselves and we have to look out for ourselves. They are out there to make money, and by them putting pressure on developers to make 1080P games they are simply reducing the graphical quality of games and at the same time trying to pressure us into buying 1080P televisions.
Excuse me but I believe other companies sell HD TVs that support 1080p? Now if I see a Sony Bravia + PS3 bundle, then you have a point but at the moment, people can buy any HD TV they want. Also if that bundle happens, people still have a choice of not buying it. Sony is not forcing anything.

Basically, I say that we need to let our voice be heard that we don't care for 1080P games. If someone wants to view a game in 1080P the truth is that many sets or the PS3 itself will be able to UPSCALE the image! But the actual games themselves need to remain at 720P.
I actually want 1080p as I am working my ass off saving up for PS3 and HD TV and the pay off will be games and the bigger satisfaction will be knowing the HD TV i worked my ass off for (well, not really working THAT hard ha, but still) will be worth it.


It really comes down to this. Most people these days still have STANDARD definition TVs. A few people have 720P capable HD TVs. But only a tiny, itty bitty percentage of people have 1080P.
Eveyrthin starts out with nothing and grows. HD TV has potential to grow. At least in UK as Sky (the biggest satellite company in UK) is supporting HD like mad. There is always an advert on one of the channels advertising Sky HD.


What we need to politely and respectfully demand is that Sony stop pressuring their developers to produce games at 1080P and allow them to use their own best judgement as to what would be the optimal resolution for their game. If they on their own *want* to produce a 1080P game that's fine, but I doubt many would do so unless it is due to pressure from Sony. Because if your trying to make the most impressive game possibly why make one that's only going to be viewed by 1% or less of the population!!!
You just repeated yourself here and wtf 1080p is NOTHING EVIL! As Sony says "Next-gen will start when we say it does" Don't go drown yourself in MS sentiments. For all we know 1080p is as easy to do for devs as many things. Just because X360 came out early claiming itself to be "next gen" and then saying "1080p is impossible" doesn't mean PS3 can't pull it off.


Sony can save 1080P for the PS4. By then a SIGNIFICANT portion of gamers will have television sets that can view that resolution. Until then lets make it be known that we want Sony to quit demanding 1080P, because the SWEETSPOT for HD this generation is 720P!
Again, technology grows fast. People adopt to new technology fast.

[PUNK em 733]

I'm with MILR. He is making a valid point.

[EvilTaru]

:dazed: my bad!

So you're the one to blame!!!http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v500/EvilTaru/Indifferent2.gif

lol

[xbdestroya]

Though MILR, we don't know that Sony is actually putting any pressure on devs to do 1080p - frankly I just think it's another option for them. Racing and sports games seem well suited for it though relative to other games... so I say, why not 1080p?

But for the effects/object ridden games I tend to be fond of, I imagine 720p will be the way.

Now that I think of it however, perhaps less intensive RPGs will get the 1080p treatment as well. (that's a lot of back end work for the devs though in massive worlds, even though the GPU could handle it)

[yoshaw]

Also,

Downresing a game from 1080p to 720p or below. Wouldn't that make free anti-aliasing for consumers with 720p sets? Just curious.

[PUNK em 733]

Also,

Downresing a game from 1080p to 720p or below. Wouldn't that make free anti-aliasing for consumers with 720p sets?



Now that would be cool. I don't see how feasible that would be, but it would be awesome non the less.

[makeitlookreal]

XBD,

I have read at least a few articles with comments from developers saying that Sony is at least trying to convince them to make their games 1080P. I believe if that much has been revealed to the public more pressure is being applied on the inside.

Masteratt,

It's obvious that it takes more resources to make a 1080P game. You are going to be using more memory, more bandwidth, more shading power, and more graphical resources all together. I don't think 1080P is evil and I think it's really cool. It's an amazingly sharp technology! But I just don't see the benefit of making a game 1080P!

For example, look at your standard definition TV. Have you ever watched an amazing looking movie on it? Seriously, have you watched a good looking action, horror, fantasy, or scifi movie? Of course you have! And I bet it looked darn good too! Very realistic because obviously it was real footage sometimes mixed with HIGH end CG work.

Now, a 720P image has THREE TIMES THE DATA of a normal 480i signal that you are probably watching on your television. That is a big improvement right there. Obviously, we know that all developers are targeting games for at least 720P. That means that in a PS3 game your going to see three times the visual data on screen than on a normal SD TV.

What I am trying to get across is that we have not even NEARLY reached the point of a game looking like a movie on even a STANDARD DEFINITION television! Much less have we reached the point of a game looking like a movie or even SIMILIAR on a 720P HD television!

It's going to be more difficult to achieve that movie quality look on a HD television than a SD television. However, I realize that SD has been here a LOT time so it's about time for a jump forward. In my opinion, 720P is a nice jump with three times the data.

Now, we all want great graphics. Yes, gameplay is important. Physics, animation, particle effects, and storylines are also critical. They are VITAL. But to get to the truth the above features staying the same any of us would pick a game with BETTER graphics than one with LESSER graphics!

Quite frankly, it's going to be much more difficult to push *closer* to even SD television or movie level graphics on the PS3 with 1080P than 720P. The truth is even 720P will be more difficult, but I think many people will say it's time for a jump.

I'm just saying we have barely jumped into 720P and if we really want the highest quality graphics possible it makes sense to urge game developers that we don't really care for 1080P games unless they honestly think that is what's BEST for their game.

You see, Sony is not evil and 1080P is not evil. But we are the consumers and have to look after ourselves. The truth is that companies such as Sony AND OTHERS want to create new markets for new products to sell. If someone is complacent with 720P gaming (even though there is room for a TREMENDOUS ammount of improvement at that level with the PS3) it doesn't make them them as much money as if everyone is CLAMORING to purchase a brand new expensive 1080P television set.

I have nothing against 1080P.
I have nothing against anyone that wants to buy one.
I have nothing against great looking HD images utilizing 1080P.

But when it comes to games I want the best looking graphics possible and to some degree (I'm not a developer so I can't give you ever tiny technical number) a 1080P game requires significantly more resources than a 720P game. In my opinion with those extra resources being squeezed out of the PS3 the 720P game could be made to look much better!

Hey, I applaud you for working so hard to get your PS3 and HDTV. I'm not upset at you at all, and if it sounded that way I apologize. I'm not at all criticising people purchasing 1080P televisions. I just think that the truth is that the most realistic graphics will be possible at 720P this generation.

The PS3 is tremendously powerful and is capable of 1080P games. But those games would indeed look better if the same extra work was done on the 720P version.

Sony knows that, but honestly wants us to run out and buy the latest and greatest super expensive 1080P set because they want to make more money. There is nothing wrong with that, because they are a business out to make money and that's their job. But as a consumer we need to speak up and show our clout by telling companies that we know what they are up too!

[xbdestroya]

Also,

Downresing a game from 1080p to 720p or below. Wouldn't that make free anti-aliasing for consumers with 720p sets? Just curious.


Yes it would provide a measure of free SSAA of sorts on 720p sets, this is true. Conversly, some people prefer greater resolutions to greater AA, so some games may feature little AA, but render at 1080p... and on 720 sets they'd get that sort of 'free' AA.

When I play PC games I always try to max the resolution even at the expense of lowering the AA (of which I don't really care). This may seem counter to my 720p > 1080p personal desires - it's just that even before resolution, I prefer effects.

(I want to make clear though that 1080p won't be achieved just by kicking out AA; it's draw on resources is higher than that of the anti-aliasing, so there will be further trade-off)

[jaxmkii]

radioshack has a whole line of lessthan 1000usd 1080p HDTVs.

[Beenie Man]

It is a good thing some PS3 games are using 1080p so when 1080p screens become really mainstream and very cheap, luckily the PS3 will support it as well as games. IMO 720p and 1080p are your best bet for HD gaming but with 720p being your best choice(more content) for now atleast.

[xbdestroya]

radioshack has a whole line of lessthan 1000usd 1080p HDTVs.

Are you serious? Well c'mon now, I think that deserves a link, yeah? :smoke:

[makeitlookreal]

When I play PC games I always try to max the resolution even at the expense of lowering the AA (of which I don't really care). This may seem counter to my 720p > 1080p personal desires - it's just that even before resolution, I prefer effects.

(I want to make clear though that 1080p won't be achieved just by kicking out AA; it's draw on resources is higher than that of the anti-aliasing, so there will be further trade-off)

I totally agree XBD. At higher resolutions you are going to see fewer effects and the graphical quality as a whole will be diminished. Also, it's good to see someone at least willing to admit the obvious that a game at 1080P will create many trade-offs due to the increased consumption of graphical resources! Quite simply, if you get TWICE the resolution of 720P your going to be giving up a significant ammount of graphical effects.

As an example, I will be VERY upset if Resistance FOM or MGS4 (these games in particular just because I'm probably more interested in them than some others) end up being made into 1080P games. Because obviously some very significant reductions in graphical quality and effects will HAVE to be made. You CANNOT get something for nothing and you cannot DOUBLE the resolution of a game and not give up *something* that would have been REALLY nice to see at 720P!

[xbdestroya]

I totally agree XBD. At higher resolutions you are going to see fewer effects and the graphical quality as a whole will be diminished. Also, it's good to see someone at least willing to admit the obvious that a game at 1080P will create many trade-offs due to the increased consumption of graphical resources! Quite simply, if you get TWICE the resolution of 720P your going to be giving up a significant ammount of graphical effects.

As an example, I will be VERY upset if Resistance FOM or MGS4 (these games in particular just because I'm probably more interested in them than some others) end up being made into 1080P games. Because obviously some very significant reductions in graphical quality and effects will HAVE to be made. You CANNOT get something for nothing and you cannot DOUBLE the resolution of a game and not give up *something* that would have been REALLY nice to see at 720P!

Right, but I want to say though that Resistance may very well go for 1080p, just because they are a first-party dev and Sony does want to push it. And frankly, if it does launch at 1080p, it'll be one sharp looking game - either for owners of 1080 sets or those enjoying the SSAA. We'll find out soon enough I imagine if they're still targeting 1080p. If they are, they reach it, and the game still matches, say, Gears of War in the eyes of the critics... then that will be quite an achievement early on. But again, we'll see...

Kojima definitely wants to push the envelope, so whether that means 1080p or what, I don't know - but I do know he will only pursue what he feels will be best for the game. If he does 1080p, it's because that's what he will have felt was the best use of resources; likewise if he does 720p.

As for Tennis... what eye-candy are you looking for anyway? So I think it's a perfect candidate for 1080p; what's desired there is strong character models, and a sharp picture.

[Beenie Man]

Maybe the final PS3 dev kits are really powerful since some games that were originally 720p(Virtua Tennis 3, Army Of Two) are all of sudden going to support 1080p. Maybe the final PS3 dev kits were an extremely huge jump. However, I do not want to start a ''PS3 has G80 1GB Memory RAM Muahyahah'' thread so...

[Smokey]

i have to say i totally agre with the 720p sweet spot and the odd 1080 game. if your lucky enough to have a 1080p tv well itll be great :)

[makeitlookreal]

Beenieman,

I too am thinking there is SOMETHING we don't know about in those final Dev-Kits to allow all of these jumps to 1080P and of course the much better looking graphics we are seeing in many games running at 720P. It's just stunningly amazing to me.

XBD,

That is the thing. Even if you are a first party developer I would hope they would have the courage to go up to Sony and say, "Look, we are running this game in 720P. We want it to be as visually appealing as possible and if we boost it to 1080P we would loose too much of what we could accomplish at 720P. Also, the truth is MOST of the people who are going to play our game will be playing it in 720. Please Sony, let us make our game the way we want to at 720P and you are going to have a great looking title that blows away anything seen on the 360. It will sell tons of copies and you will be happy. However, if you force us to make the game at 1080P we are not going to guarantee anything, because you will be encouraging us to make graphical sacrifices when we have been working hard to make the game look as good as possible. Let us do our jobs and you do yours!!!"

[masteratt]

I am saying once I get the PS3 and the HD TV, I want to see the difference.
It would be great if I purchase Virtua Tennis 3 and for the first time ever turn on the PS3 and think "holy christ, now THAT'S next-gen!!"
Obviously gameplay is mroe important yada yada blah blah, we all know PS3 has that front covered and now I, perhaps through great Sony advertising WANT to be amazed by the quality of the visuals, not just the game.

As XBD mentioned, Virtua Tennis is THE perfect candidate for an 1080p, what an eye candy that will be and I think Sony will use 1080p as eye-candy and perhaps in two years or so we will have intencse gameplay with 1080p- Now how aamazing would that be!?

I just thought this thread came a little too strong and I felt it was against 1080p which clearly isn't the case.
So sorry for the mis-conception MILR but I truly believe Sony will make best use of 1080p!
I am pretty sure that African Simulation game (or what the hell-ever it is) will make a great difference being displayed in 1080p rather than 720. That's what I mean, why have "wow" when you can have "OMFG AMAZING!" ;)
I don't think Sony is being too agressive with this at all.

[xbdestroya]

Beenieman,

I too am thinking there is SOMETHING we don't know about in those final Dev-Kits to allow all of these jumps to 1080P and of course the much better looking graphics we are seeing in many games running at 720P. It's just stunningly amazing to me.

It's nothing all that shocking. When you look at the games that are touting 1080p, it makes perfect sense to me. Again it will just come down to comapring flaship titles vs flagship titles; 1080p will play a role, but it's not the sole determiner.


XBD,

That is the thing. Even if you are a first party developer I would hope they would have the courage to go up to Sony and say, "Look, we are running this game in 720P. We want it to be as visually appealing as possible and if we boost it to 1080P we would loose too much of what we could accomplish at 720P. Also, the truth is MOST of the people who are going to play our game will be playing it in 720. Please Sony, let us make our game the way we want to at 720P and you are going to have a great looking title that blows away anything seen on the 360. It will sell tons of copies and you will be happy. However, if you force us to make the game at 1080P we are not going to guarantee anything, because you will be encouraging us to make graphical sacrifices when we have been working hard to make the game look as good as possible. Let us do our jobs and you do yours!!!"

Well, and maybe the devs would have 'the courage.' But so what? If Sony says, 'no, we need 1080p,' well then that's what you're going to do.

[makeitlookreal]

Let me ask you this.

What makes 1080P so much better for gaming than 720P in your opinion? I would like to know that Masteratt. I mean, in and of itself what about 1080P are you looking forward too so much that you are willing for them to sacrficie a significant ammount of graphical quality just to get the resolution up?

[OmniStalgic]

@MILR-I partially agree with u man. I think 720p is defintely the sweet spot. I don't have a HDTV yet but I'm looking into 720p displays as soon as the price is a little more to my liking. However I think that PS3 is simply a better investment than other systems because it's future proof. Sure, Sony is talking to devs to support 1080p-but not Forcing them. The option is simply there-so as XB said, "why not?" TV's will get cheaper. And when a 1080p 36in. TV is $500 then PS3 will be ready to take advantage of that.

Insomniac and Kojima Studios aren't gonna produce a game that they think would look better in a differernt resolution-so I wouldn't worry about that. Not to mention that it's still very Early in this system's life! The thing hasn't even launched yet! Developers may find ways to maximize Resolution without sacraficing anything with TIME. I say that becaue I know sometimes u like to jump the gun a little and I'm simply reminding u to be patient. Games like GT or puzzle games would look great in 1080p without diminishing the special effects. 1080p is a PLUS for PS3. Just look at PS2 for conformation. Look at how many years it's been out and developers are still releasing top games on the system. Sony makes good hardware-and PS3 will further establish that.

btw-+REp for a good thread starter!

[masteratt]

Let me ask you this.

What makes 1080P so much better for gaming than 720P in your opinion? I would like to know that Masteratt. I mean, in and of itself what about 1080P are you looking forward too so much that you are willing for them to sacrficie a significant ammount of graphical quality just to get the resolution up?

That's what I am saying.
The feeling I have at the moment isn't Sony whipping devs into making 1080p games. Theya re using it as eye candy only for people who have 1080p TVs.

They are pushing new technology, yes but I think it's about time they do. After all they are releasing a NEXT-GEN console and obivously they will push the highest when it comes to Disc Space and resolution.

It's common sense.

What am I looking forward to most about 1080p? Amazingly clear visuals and the fact that workind for a "real" HD TV paying off thanks to a great product like PS3 supporting it.

[makeitlookreal]

Masteratt,

Thank you very much for your opinion. All I want to add (because it's obvious we disagree on some issues) is that 720P is indeed "real" High Definition television. It's all just a matter of degrees. It's not *as* high definition as 1080P but 720P puts three times the data on your screen as a standard definition TV. To me, that's more than impressive enough for right now.

Omnicloud,

The PS3 is not exactly future proof because at least for when it comes to playing it's games it is NOT going to be getting an upgrade that could boost it's potential. It is perhaps more future "resistant" because it is more powerful than the 360, but really it's nothing too amazingly extraordinary. It's really not too much further along than current top end PC's and that is only due to the CELL and the FlexIO bus.

You see, I think the PS3 is going to make amazing games and they are going to look great. But I'm simply saying we as consumers need to stand up and tell developers that we don't want any games produced at 1080P if the reason is due to Sony pressuring them. If they honestly feel that 1080P is best for their game then that's fine. But I don't like the idea of Sony pushing 1080P so hard for LAUNCH WINDOW games and EARLY PS3 games when so few people even have 720P televisions.

And thanks for the REP man! I really do appreciate it!

[Old_Timer!]

Well in my opinion, with the current level of Dev experience maybe 720p games are the best choice. On the other hand 1080p is already achievable in 1st gen games and will be the standard in the future.

Why I say this is that the FCC(US) has already set a date for NTSC/PAL television signal conversion, I think it's 2008 I'm not completely sure about the date. Anyways as we can see the HD market is growing and as it gets saturated prices will fall, hence HD will be standard in somewhere between 2 and 5 years. Just when PS3 is reaching it's stride and Devs have a real handle on ops of the machine.

And if devs are already pushing 1080p games before launch, I would have to say that bodes well for the 1080p standardization of such.

MILR the Cell is a big departure from the norm man, most top tier pc's was just dual core.

[lips]

two points: the rasterizer in the rsx is so incredably fast, I don't see how 1080p will have any performance difference from 720p.

second: having a system specifically designed for a standard set will probably be the most important buying point for me. This is why Nintendo WII will probably be the only next gen system for me. And yes, I do own a set capable of 1080p, so thats not the issue, only that game playing should be only on a standard set because gaming, in essence, is not very serious business.

[PUNK em 733]

I do own a set capable of 1080p, so thats not the issue, only that game playing should be only on a standard set because gaming, in essence, is not very serious business.


How is watching Tv, or a movie more "serious"?

[makeitlookreal]

1080 is easy to achieve. That is not the question. It's how well the games will look when you have to use a lot more resources to hit twice the resolution of 720P.

Also, I agree the one most significant thing it seems about the PS3 (unless they announce something new) is indeed the CELL processor.

[Old_Timer!]

On the contrary lips, it's serious business babyyyyyy.

[BahnNZ]

I agree too. Mainly because I've already bought my HD TV, and 720p is as high as it goes. :)

And 720p looks beautiful.

[xbdestroya]

two points: the rasterizer in the rsx is so incredably fast, I don't see how 1080p will have any performance difference from 720p.

Well, drawing a scene at 1080p vs 720p means drawing more than twice the pixels, so there is a big difference in what can be achieved at either resolution.

[lips]

I need my 2.4 mega pixel set to connect to my pc to compile computer programs. it will accept any 2 mega pixel signal over the dvi cable.

I say it is on a more serious project now because when I am programming, I am frowning. Implying seriousness. When I am gaming, I am smiling. Implying giddiness. cannot comment on movies or tv, as I rarely do either.

[lips]

Well, drawing a scene at 1080p vs 720p means drawing more than twice the pixels, so there is a big difference in what can be achieved at either resolution.


I could not say, as I would have to see it in action. I do know the rsx is a monster in computational power, and is probably only limited by memory bandwidth. the 360 will definitely be plagued by the same issues, as the frame buffer must be made in tiles in the edram then copied in to a presistant frame buffer in the gddr memory pool, creating an even higher bandwidth issue than ps3. Ofcourse, any one who has seen the x360 in action know there is no problem here.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I need a 1080p television (or hd at all for that matter) to really give a crap.

[BahnNZ]

Only 1080p TVs that are available anytime soon seem to be either computer monitors with hdmi/component inputs(with all that entails), or monster giant back projection beasties.

At least in New Zealand.

[LaLiLuLeLo]

well isn't that nice.
I think I'll wait until 1080p televisions are only a few hundred dollars and not a couple thousand, and not friggin huge, before I buy one.

[PUNK em 733]

well isn't that nice.
I think I'll wait until 1080p televisions are only a few hundred dollars and not a couple thousand, and not friggin huge, before I buy one.



You're prolly gonna wait for like 10 yrs then.

[yoshaw]

If small is what anyone wants, then LCD Moniters are your best bet.

[PUNK em 733]

What are other good monitors, 1080p, 19-22" or so?

[Viano]

well, the thing is there is the difference between 720 1080. I'd rather have less car displaying on the screen if that's what it takes for 1080 when playing GT5.

1080 is an option for dev, don't they have the right to decide what's good for their works?

[LaLiLuLeLo]

I doubt it'll be 10 years. More like 2. Maybe 3. During/After this holiday season prices on hd sets are gonna drop pretty drastically. I don't want a small, small hd tv. But a 20-30 inch hd display for a few hundred bucks (c'mon, like 400, 500 bucks), and not a couple thousand dollars. I can't justify it.

[frosty]

^Buy the 1680x1050 Dell 2005FPW monitor. It has DVI input and is only $480.

[overclocked]

6 times the density is sweet compared to SD and 720p s 3 times.
I think there will be quit a lot of games utilizing 1080P.

SS+MSAA if you play in a lover resolution looks best, has always looked best IMO.

Don't know if others can give their view on the matter, XB?

[LaLiLuLeLo]

^Buy the 1680x1050 Dell 2005FPW monitor. It has DVI input and is only $480.

But what about sound? I want a tv monitor with speakers!

[Lekko]

Well, there are basically 3 types of games out there: AAA exclusives, ports, and non AAA titles.

Does anyone here think that ported titles, which generally keep the same assets and same basic graphics, might use the PS3's extra power to bump the res. up to 1080p from other versions?

AAA titles... I'm on the fence. If a game CAN do it, great. If it can't, no big deal really. 1080p is premium right now, not the standard. Besides, what kind of graphical hit are we really talking about? I don't want to jump on a bandwagon here without knowing the full numbers. Are we talking 1080p = half the characters on screen? 20% less particle effects? 50%? 2%?

non-AAA ports. These titles are usually what fills up the REST of the store shelves when you look for games. These are games that could easily be 1080p because they aren't pushing the system, but are probably not given the time to push that limit, or they just don't have the background to do it. These titles should be 1080p, but just don't have the budget unless creating 1080p becomes a lot more feasible for non-ambitious projects.

On a whole, I want it, but not as mandatory. If ported titles get boosted definition, then it will be a huge plus in Sony's corner.

[GUNDAMSEED]

Man FF13 in 1080p on my TV tht all i have to say . Some games i think 1080p could be a plus . Like rpgs and sports games . Take a rpgs for Eg they really don't have alot going all the time .

[overclocked]

Man FF13 in 1080p on my TV tht all i have to say . Some games i think 1080p could be a plus . Like rpgs and sports games . Take a rpgs for Eg they really don't have alot going all the time .

I guess they will have lot of CG in FIII and that CG i bet is in 1080P ;)

[jaxmkii]

Are you serious? Well c'mon now, I think that deserves a link, yeah? :smoke: sorry man it was a physicl visit

[jaxmkii]

Let me ask you this.

What makes 1080P so much better for gaming than 720P in your opinion? I would like to know that Masteratt. I mean, in and of itself what about 1080P are you looking forward too so much that you are willing for them to sacrficie a significant ammount of graphical quality just to get the resolution up?
1080p effectivly boost your veiwable range and allows you too look MUCH farther down track. and in racing the ability to see and plan you next move the earlyer the better.

thank you polyphoney for giving GT4/TT 1080i:angelgrin

[cliffbo]

They got to you then MILR... a sad day to see you compromise. 1080p, 60fps, looking sweet as a nut.

[masteratt]

I would like the title of this thread to be changed.
It's strongly disrespectful to Sony and without a valid reason.

"720P the sweetspot for THE BEST GRAPHICS!?" I think would be appropriate.

[makeitlookreal]

It's not disrespectful. We are CONSUMERS of Sony's products and not worshipers of the cult of Sony's omnipotence. The truth is that the reason their pushing 1080P is to line their pockets with cash. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that but we the consumers need to stand up for ourselves on the issue.

I can't believe how so many consumers on this forum and others basically worship producers and don't care to stand up and demand the best for their hard earned dollars.

Quite frankly, Sony pushing graphically intensive games such as Resistance and MGS4 to reach 1080P means that they are more than willing to sacrifice making a game look as great as possible just to push their new televisions.

[venomv]

I just gotta say I don't see anything wrong with trying to advance technology and give devs options, by supporting 1080p Sony is doing both. There is nothing but possitive for us unless Sony won't allow games under 1080p, which isn't gonna happen.

[masteratt]

Sony and their PS brand is known for giving us about 80% of what many true gamers will consider "Classic games" and I don't think Sony disrespects their customers.
I have been a PS fan for years now and I have never felt the anger or ever thought "omfg this is just ripping us off". Memory Cards were a bit of an issue as they were a bit expensive and 8MB did fill very quickly but other than that I don't think Sony blatantly rip us off to "fill their own pockets".

I don't worship Sony. Just the amazing product (PlayStation) they create and for all they are trying to give us (best resolution as this is NEXT GEN after all!) it's wrong for anyone to assume they are doing it to fill their own pocket.
As mentioned in my first post of this thread- People can buy any other brand to play thier PS3 on 1080p. Sony is not saying "1080p will only be available with our brand of TVs"

Yes- thank you 'venomv'....This is all positive news and nothing negative. Sony is doing nothing but feed us and the devs. To state "they are doing it to fill their own pocket" is outrageous and is disrespecting Sony.

[Epix]

In my opinion 720P is the perfect sweetspot for HD games this generation. It's high definition enough so you can see more data on the screen, but not so ridiculously high like 1080P that games will have to be reduced in graphical quality. Basically, it takes many more computing resources to make a 1080P game than a 720P game. By sticking to the sweetspot of 720P you can get optimal graphics, a very good resolution, and more than 1% of the population will be able to play your game at it's optimal resolution.

1080P gaming is just an excuse for Sony to try and make people purchase more of their televisions. Now, I like Sony in a lot of ways and think they are a good company. In a business sense they are doing the right thing by using the PS3 to push other products they can make a profit from. However, we as consumers have to realize they are looking after themselves and we have to look out for ourselves. They are out there to make money, and by them putting pressure on developers to make 1080P games they are simply reducing the graphical quality of games and at the same time trying to pressure us into buying 1080P televisions.

Basically, I say that we need to let our voice be heard that we don't care for 1080P games. If someone wants to view a game in 1080P the truth is that many sets or the PS3 itself will be able to UPSCALE the image! But the actual games themselves need to remain at 720P.

Now, I want to say for the record that I'm not trying to portray that 1080P games will look bad. I think they will look very good. However, the absolute fact is they take up many more graphical resources, take up more memory, and force developers to push many more pixels. By keeping a game at 720P it can look very significantly BETTER than 1080P.

It really comes down to this. Most people these days still have STANDARD definition TVs. A few people have 720P capable HD TVs. But only a tiny, itty bitty percentage of people have 1080P.

What we need to politely and respectfully demand is that Sony stop pressuring their developers to produce games at 1080P and allow them to use their own best judgement as to what would be the optimal resolution for their game. If they on their own *want* to produce a 1080P game that's fine, but I doubt many would do so unless it is due to pressure from Sony. Because if your trying to make the most impressive game possibly why make one that's only going to be viewed by 1% or less of the population!!!

Sony can save 1080P for the PS4. By then a SIGNIFICANT portion of gamers will have television sets that can view that resolution. Until then lets make it be known that we want Sony to quit demanding 1080P, because the SWEETSPOT for HD this generation is 720P!

MILR, I wonder if your opinion would be different if YOU just bought a brand new 1080p television? hmmm....

[makeitlookreal]

VenumV,

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with 1080P. But the reasons for games with very high quality graphics and effects like MGS4, Resistance, Devil May Cry, and others being targetted at 720P are obvious! You can do significantly more graphically at 720P than 1080p.

Now, what I am opposed to is Sony jumping in and telling a developer, "You know we really want your game to be made at 1080P. We are trying to push 1080P because we have all these TVs to sell don't ya know!" In reality their statement probably would not be quite that frank (or maybe so) but developers know that Sony are trying to push 1080P to sell more televisions.

If a developer who was making a more basic game that was not trying to do anything impressive graphically wanted to produce one at 1080P without any pressure from Sony then I would have NO PROBLEM with it.

But the idea of Sony forcing a great looking game like MGS4, Devil May Cry, or any other to have a resolution of 1080P and then lose some of their graphical goodness makes me INFURIATED!

Hey, if I was Sony I would be FORCING every single game to produce their games at 1080P or I would drop their funding completely. Yes, I would be trying to do that to sell as many HD televisions as possible. For some reason it seems Sony is not *quite* as demanding as I would be. You see, if I was a producer I would not care about the gamers at all. I would want to make as much money as possible for my bottom line and if that meant making lesser quality games to have them rendered at the highest resolution so I could sell tons of televisions I would do it in a moment!

However, we are consumers and we are not Sony so we need to stay sharp and look after ourselves.

If Sony wants to really, really push 1080P then they need to hurry up with their die shrinks, start producing 32nm CELL CHIPS ahead of schedule, throw a couple of them in a PS3, get NVIDIA working on a specialized GPU utilizing some of their G90+ technology, toss in a bunch more RAM, and launch the PS4 in lets say 4 years instead of 10. Then lots of people would have 1080P televisions and the new PS3 would chew through 1080P without any problem whatsoever.

EDIT: If I just purchased a 1080P television I would still much rather have a more realistic game with better shading, effects, texturing, and so fourth than one that just happens to have a tremendously high resolution.

[EvilTaru]

I don't think Sony is "pressuring" developers to make games in 1080p, they're asking them to make use of a feature on the console, ultimately whether that feature makes it in or not is not up to Sony, but 1080p does have its advantages.

I can't wait to see Virtua Tennis 3 in 1080p, obviously 1080p is not going to be feasible for every single game, but some will benefit from this resolution, AM2 decided it was feasible for Virtua Tennis 3 and that isn't Sony's decision, it was the developer's decision. There's always give and take when it comes to visuals, whether it's resolution, framerate, particle effects and the use of shaders, as well as overall visuals, the point is to find the best solution and that is obviously different for every game.

Maybe developers shouldn't be pressured to make 720p games either since most people still have SDTVs, 480p is enough!!! Forget HD, forget shaders, forget HDR lighting, let's have the same graphics we've had for the past five years!!!http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v500/EvilTaru/indifferent.gif

[Luis]

Maybe developers shouldn't be pressured to make 720p games either since most people still have SDTVs, 480p is enough!!! Forget HD, forget shaders, forget HDR lighting, let's have the same graphics we've had for the past five years!!!http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v500/EvilTaru/indifferent.gifGraphics? Who cares!!!


http://www.linux-france.org/prj/jargonf/fig/pong.png

Let's keep playing Pong. If you don't, you suck :loser:

[EvilTaru]

Graphics? Who cares!!!


http://www.linux-france.org/prj/jargonf/fig/pong.png

Let's keep playing Pong. If you don't, you suck :loser:

LOL.

[makeitlookreal]

EvilTaru,

What are you trying to say? Personally, I think the resolution of their games should be completely left up to them. I don't think Sony should force any resolution, but I will say that I have no problem with 720P just because it's a very nice mid-way point which provides a jump to HD and also is not so extreme that it could hinder graphically rich games.

By the way, with 480P we could indeed have TONS of shaders, longer shaders, better HDR lighting, and all kinds of special effects. If a developer for some reason chose to make a 480P game for the PS3 it could look better in many ways than a 720P game.

How, I am not saying strictly speaking the lower resolution the better the game will look. But look at the quality of an action movie on your regular SD television. I think the PS3 only pushing 480P could get much closer to that than utilizing a higher definition such as 720P.

All I am saying is that it does not make sense to say 480P would only allow LAST gen graphics. The Wii will only produce slightly better than last gen graphics because it's basically not much more than an over-clocked gamecube with a little more memory. But a PS3 powering a 480P game would look stunning.

I'm not fussing at you EvilTaru. But I just wanted to explain that 480P would not automatically mean last gen graphics.

[curryking1]

I agree with xbdestroya. 1080p is not for all games, likely those kind of games that are effect and shader heavy. Games like Gran Turismo and simulation games that don't have so much graphics intensive stuff and tons of physically reacting objects can put their work into making 1080p work while still pumping out seriously amazing graphics relative to their genre or whatever.

I think a game like GT5 is likely to come out in 1080p and still top all the other racers in the gfx department, while maybe a game, say Killzone (ya bad example, what are you gonna do... lol) may try to be really effect heavy and have lots of stuff going on in the background like lots of physics and AI and it would opt for 720p.

It's all a balance of power I guess, if you have more left over that doesn't make sense to use in one place, use it somewhere else right?

[cliffbo]

You can do significantly more graphically at 720P than 1080p.

MILR just what do you mean by significantly more if you mean more happening on screen that`s ok but 1080p offers it`s own advantages when used correctly and might not require the significantly more assets you mention to achieve an improved look for games for example wouldn`t vector graphic style games benefit from a higher rez just like the xbox360 live arcade titles do when given a 720p makeover or if a 1080p game is designed properly it would look more detailed without any noticeable loss of content.

sony would not jeopardize sales of any product just to push 1080p so i do not see them forcing it upon devs or consumers just to sell tv`s.

incidentally pc games scale very nicely to higher resolution`s and for the most part do not require a huge amount of extra assets or lose much if anything in the way of shaders or effects AFAIK.
:)

[EvilTaru]

EvilTaru,

What are you trying to say? Personally, I think the resolution of their games should be completely left up to them. I don't think Sony should force any resolution, but I will say that I have no problem with 720P just because it's a very nice mid-way point which provides a jump to HD and also is not so extreme that it could hinder graphically rich games.

By the way, with 480P we could indeed have TONS of shaders, longer shaders, better HDR lighting, and all kinds of special effects. If a developer for some reason chose to make a 480P game for the PS3 it could look better in many ways than a 720P game.

How, I am not saying strictly speaking the lower resolution the better the game will look. But look at the quality of an action movie on your regular SD television. I think the PS3 only pushing 480P could get much closer to that than utilizing a higher definition such as 720P.

All I am saying is that it does not make sense to say 480P would only allow LAST gen graphics. The Wii will only produce slightly better than last gen graphics because it's basically not much more than an over-clocked gamecube with a little more memory. But a PS3 powering a 480P game would look stunning.

I'm not fussing at you EvilTaru. But I just wanted to explain that 480P would not automatically mean last gen graphics.

The point is at 720p, one can see ALOT MORE DETAILS than at 480p, the same goes for 1080p over 720p. The notion of "nice midway point" (which will gradually become the lowest common denominator) is silly, if everybody is SETTLING for the "nice midway point" then nobody would be pushing the envelope of more shaders, better lighting, better resolution, better framerate, more particle effects, etc, etc.

Sony SHOULD always be encouraging developers to make use of a feature on the console, just like the motion sensor, or HDR lighting, or tone-mapping, or the Cell architecture, or HDD-caching, or PNP, or any one of the console's features, developers are the ones who will decide what they're capable of and what they will reasonably pursue. It would be totally stupid for Sony to take a completely laissez-faire approach and just tell developers to settle for the "midway point". The point isn't to make the game less visually impressive just to get it to 1080p, the point is to have the game be both visually impressive AND at 1080p, all Sony is doing is challenging developers to see what they can achieve.

Just because a few games will already be at 1080p doesn't mean Sony is strong-arming developers into making the games that way, developers are just taking advantage of a feature that will improve the visuals of their games, because 1080p can BENEFIT these games. Just because you can't enjoy it doesn't mean they shouldn't be aiming higher than what you can enjoy, and if you have a 1080p TV it makes even LESS sense to want them to aim LOWER than what you can enjoy.

[makeitlookreal]

more shaders, better lighting, better resolution, better framerate, more particle effects, etc, etc.

Don't you realize that at a higher resolution you are going to have potentially worse lighting, fewer shaders, lower framerate, and not as many particle effects? If you want developers to push a game to the limits it's going to be better for them to develop at 720P. Yes, there is more detail in 1080P than 720P but that is not everything. For example, movies on your television look real, don't they? If you watch a movie such as Terminator on your TV doesn't it look realistic? Reaching for 1080P is not going to make a game look more like that. It's going to drain more resources and more hardware power so the game looks LESS than truly realistic like a TV program or movie.

You see, resolution is a nice thing to have. But when you have more pixels to push your simply forced to use less resources per pixel. For example, if you have "X" ammount of pixel shading power in a GPU and you double the ammount of pixels on screen that is going to mean each pixel is only going to be shaded HALF as well!

Also, it's not just brute pixel shading that is taken up. It's more bandwidth, memory, and other forms of processing power.

I'm ALL FOR developers pushing the limits when it comes to graphics. But really 1080P is not a "special feature" at all! It's really not!

The Wii could easily produce a 1080P game. Now, it doesn't have a way to output the data. That is the only obstacle. But the Wii could produce a 1080P game! It could do so easily.

But the problem is that the game would be very weak graphically because so many more resources would be utilized. Yes, it would be at 1080P but could look worse graphically than a Nintendo 64 game!

[frosty]

And yet they say resistance can be done 1080p... makes one think that a 720p killzone isn't too far fetched after all.

[PUNK em 733]

The Wii could easily produce a 1080P game. Now, it doesn't have a way to output the data. That is the only obstacle. But the Wii could produce a 1080P game! It could do so easily.


Uhhh no.

[overclocked]

And yet they say resistance can be done 1080p... makes one think that a 720p killzone isn't too far fetched after all.

You know, Killzone. Yes the infamous CG-trailer is going to be achieved.
I have no doubts about it cause it looks imo already not so impressive relatively speaking, its nothing special IMO frosty,

[PUNK em 733]

I have no doubts about it cause it looks imo already not so impressive relatively speaking, its nothing special IMO frosty,


You've got to be kidding me!!!:wtf:

[Stelio]

EvilTaru,
All I am saying is that it does not make sense to say 480P would only allow LAST gen graphics. The Wii will only produce slightly better than last gen graphics because it's basically not much more than an over-clocked gamecube with a little more memory. But a PS3 powering a 480P game would look stunning.


With all do respect, MILR, what the hell are you smoking? Over-clocked Gamecube with more ram? I take that as a deliberate understatement.

What's all the fuss about anyway? 1080 I/P will become the norm for 2nd gen games and onwards. You seem to be forgetting that it will be able to output not only 1080p, but 1080p x 2 channels. AND...yes we understand that by programming a game at a lower res wiill allow for more things to be presented onscreen. But the fact remains that in order to truly push the envelope for graphical power, you will soon see all of the major players pushing units in high res.

Lets just leave it at that...


- STELIO

[xbdestroya]

I need to take a poll on this forum as to how many people are PC gamers.

[frosty]

^
^
That is a valid point, Sony's origional plans were for 32:9 1080px2 gameplay, so RSX must have been powerful enough for that for them to say that.

[Vegtro]

I need to take a poll on this forum as to how many people are PC gamers.

I am.

[xbdestroya]

I am.

Ok thanks for letting me know Vegtro. ;)

Really I'm just alluding to the fact that people are having - clearly - a very hard time conceptualizing the idea of trade-offs. It's all sort of a, 'Yeah I hear what you're saying, but Sony's got to push the limits.'

Indeed, and I've got to get a million dollars.

[Lekko]

The PS3 should be limited to one pixel. It would be the most amazing pixel ever rendered.

[jaxmkii]

hey lets have things a happy medium and havem at 1080i! :)

[Viano]

I just watched the killzone trailer again, and somehow I "feel" the graphic is not that crazy?

[LaLiLuLeLo]

It's not. What sets it off is the animation and the explosions effects. The polygon models aren't what's killer about it, or haven't already been reached, or are being reached.

[makeitlookreal]

Yes, the Wii could indeed make a 1080P game. There is nothing magically difficult about making such a game. It's just the Wii would not have a way to output it to your moniter and the graphics would be TREMENDOUSLY diminished due to the Wii's limited hardware.

Also, the Wii is basically not much more than an over-clocked Gamecube with a good bit of extra RAM. Yes, it does have motion sensing but we are talking hardware processing power here. From what I have read about the Wii's speculated/leaked specifications it's going to be more powerful than the first XBox (perhaps twice as powerful at most) but not anything near a true next-gen console.

By the way, the PS3 could indeed output two 1080P channels, but something tells me the graphical quality of such an output would be *very* limited. For the PS3 to for example have two different people playing in two different parts of the same level in a game like Resistance something big would have to be sacrificed.

You have to realize that 1080P can be done easily. Two channels of 1080P can even be done. But the higher you go in definition or in this example two 1080P channels the more SACRIFICES you will have to make.

I'm impressed by the PS3 and do indeed think it's very possible. But if it's nothing more than what we were told at E3 of 2005 (which is impressive due to the CELL processor) then it's illogical to believe it's some kind of miracle machine.

[Viano]

two channels might not be needed, but one main output plus a sub output for data would help alot

[lips]

Yes, the Wii could indeed make a 1080P game. There is nothing magically difficult about making such a game. It's just the Wii would not have a way to output it to your moniter and the graphics would be TREMENDOUSLY diminished due to the Wii's limited hardware.


Just how did you piece together that bit of logic?

[overclocked]

You've got to be kidding me!!!:wtf:

No i don't. Its really bad "CG" and we already seen games that is at that level, without utilising Cell.

xbdestroya " I need to take a poll on this forum as to how many people are PC gamers."

Very good idea. if you been a serious PC player you know the bottlenecks in and out basically.

And where came the Wii talk in? :)
¤Never seen such ripoff as Wii but anyway thats my opinion.¤

[msantti]

I think Shane Kim with MS has said that 720p is "the sweet spot".

I wonder why he would say this?

:shocked:

[overclocked]

I think Shane Kim with MS has said that 720p is "the sweet spot".

I wonder why he would say this?

:shocked:


Instead of doing 3 times the work per pixel 1080P force the GPUs to do 6 times
the work per pixel compared to normal television.

With the current consoles(PS3/360) i agree that 720P is definitive the sweet spot.

[cliffbo]

MILR you seem to think the Wii is capable of making a 1080p game would you care to tell us exactly how this could be achieved?

one more thing do you realize that the 360 is about to get a software update allowing hd-dvd and game content to be scaled upto 1080p via component i know it`s not true 1080p but it will give the illusion of it without having to have the extra assets.
:)

[JosVerstappen]

It's not. What sets it off is the animation and the explosions effects. The polygon models aren't what's killer about it, or haven't already been reached, or are being reached.

Animation is exactly the key to making a game lifelike, not resolution or modeldetail. It's were CG cutscenes differ and stand out related to in-game animation, that is restricted to player-controls (run forward, left, diagonal etc) with all the animation-sequences.

The transistion between different animations in the models is what EA for example is working hard on to make their sportsgames closer to reality, it looks crappy in current gen game when a player switches from a certain runanimation to a diagonal direction. You need a lot more animation routines to make it look more fluendly.

I'm with MILR that devs should put all their efforts and resources on animation and AI instead of simply upping the resolution to show 2 times more the pixel-detail. 1080p resolution was already possble in a Quake 3 engine 5 years ago, even an Xbox or GC could theoreticly do this if they supported it in output-software. The Geforce 3A in the Xbox is centainly not restricted in that sense. Supporting that mode would make the games awkwardly slow and they had to cut back in all kinds of mapping and gfx assets, so the logical choice would ofcourse be 480p, but if they really wanted it, they could have done it back then already.

There's so much more to improve on lower resolutions in terms of mapping, animation and AI to equal DVD-like movie quality, before they should take try to make everything at 1080p. PS3 is not a magical unlimited power machine, if devs choose for a 1080p in general you are going to loose 30-50% renderingpower. Basicly, when a game could run on 100fps at 720p, and 60 fps at 1080p, my choice would be 720p and increase detail massively in other areas untill the 720p mode is sqeezed out for 60fps.

When PS3-gfx-engines are tuned efficiently 3 years down from now with all the bells and whistles they learned down the road, then it's maybe the right time to go for 1080p as a standard. First things first.

[EvilTaru]

The PS3 should be limited to one pixel. It would be the most amazing pixel ever rendered.

The lighting and shaders on that single pixel must be amazing. ~_~

[Luis]

The lighting and shaders on that single pixel must be amazing. ~_~Indeed! Look at this screenshot ---> .

It's blue! =-o

[Smokey]

720p = has to be minumin, and i am not a pc gamer (wheres this poll) that is why i have a console :)

[Crossbar]

Indeed! Look at this screenshot ---> .

It's blue! =-o
Yeah, imagine how long shader programs you could run for that single pixel!!!!

People will be amazed of that pixel. :drunk:

This discussion is getting interesting. ;)

Personally I believe there will be a few 1080p games that really will shine in comparison to the 720p version, but remember they can only do that on a screen that does 1080p justice and that is a 60" + screen if you want to sit more than 2m from the screen. I expect GT5 (not GT-HD) to be such a game.

[Domination]

I think Shane Kim with MS has said that 720p is "the sweet spot".

I wonder why he would say this?

:shocked:


I don't know, but he also said the following in which I found to be a bit intertesting:


In an interview with Kotaku.com, Shane Kim, the corporate VP of Microsoft Game Studios, has spoken about 1080p support on Xbox 360 in the wake of news that a software update in the autumn for the console will introduce the output - without the need for an HDMI cable.

The software update for the console will add the ability to display both games and films at this lofty resolution. Kim explained that "if it is running at 720p we will up-res it to 1080p, if it it's already 1080p then we can display it in 1080p." In what's surely a snipe at PS3 and Sony, he added, "this is a great example of our console's ability and the great advantage of being a software company."

For those of you scratching your heads as to how a software update can fill in for the lack of an HDMI output, join the queue. Kim went on to explain Microsoft has "the ability to output either through VGA or component", and said "We have no HDMI announcement now."

"We do have the capability to deliver the software and, if needed, the hardware," he added.
Source (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=146296)

[overclocked]

Yeah, imagine how long shader programs you could run for that single pixel!!!!

People will be amazed of that pixel. :drunk:

This discussion is getting interesting. ;)

Personally I believe there will be a few 1080p games that really will shine in comparison to the 720p version, but remember they can only do that on a screen that does 1080p justice and that is a 60" + screen if you want to sit more than 2m from the screen. I expect GT5 (not GT-HD) to be such a game.

*Think what the 300+ instruction shader outputs as pixel 2-4 OMG* :laugh:

Sticking out my big nose again and guessing that L.A.I.R is going to be 1080P native because of the history of Factor5. Its a big if but i like to gamble. ;)

Thinking of Virtua tennis that started this really and the confusion MS has now. Monopole/bad ethics and moral = Microsoft = Xbox360 :rocket:

[FantasyGhost]

And who was it again that said 1080p is not good for playing games. It'll never happen this year... Meanwhile Sony gets a few games out at 1080p... Oh sh!t we need to get hat too... Update this fall XBOX 360 1080p WTF!?
Now every litle xbot hahaha PS3 = pwnd, or like now i definetly won't get a PS3. They weren't gonna get one in the first place why bother commenting...

[xbdestroya]

The 360 update is almost certainly derived from their need to support 1080p HD-DVD content. I doubt you'll see many core game titles using it; maybe for XBox Live Arcade or some less demanding retail games.

Also there's a sort of debate as to whether Xenos can support 1080p natively or not, or whether it's scaled. Who knows...

[Beenie Man]

WTF. This news is suprising. But I highly doubt many 360 games will be 1080p natively. Maybe for arcade games but not full out 360 games.

Ridge Racer 1080p60fps
Virtua Tennis 3 1080p60fps
WarDevil 1080p
Lair 1080p
Skate 1080p
Gran Turismo HD 1080p60fps
Resistance 1080p30fps
etc. etc. etc.

But I guess this is the way of the buisness. To compete against ones opponent. I actually like the competition between the 360 and PS3. It motivates each of the opposing sides to make their console even better.

[Luis]

Without HDMI, 360 won't be able to support 1080p60.

[Crossbar]

I actually like the competition between the 360 and PS3. It motivates each of the opposing sides to make their console even better.
Totally agree, without the 360 the PS3 launch games probably wouldn't look better than the launch game of the 360 from last year. Competition at its best. :cheers:

[Domination]

And who was it again that said 1080p is not good for playing games. It'll never happen this year... Meanwhile Sony gets a few games out at 1080p... Oh sh!t we need to get hat too... Update this fall XBOX 360 1080p WTF!?
Now every litle xbot hahaha PS3 = pwnd, or like now i definetly won't get a PS3. They weren't gonna get one in the first place why bother commenting...

It's nothing in which we didn't already know before. Like I told you, no one is going to set and make an extremely competitive move, not in favor to them, look better than what they are offering you. Doing so, especially to a competitor in which they may find difficult to catch up to, will only make selling their product that much harder to consumers.

It's considered sour unless you, too, can do it.


The 360 update is almost certainly derived from their need to support 1080p HD-DVD content. I doubt you'll see many core game titles using it; maybe for XBox Live Arcade or some less demanding retail games.

Also there's a sort of debate as to whether Xenos can support 1080p natively or not, or whether it's scaled. Who knows...

I was thinking this as well. Just like backwards compatibility, I'm thinking there is something he isn't tell us about the limits with going with such a solution. So I'm kinda wondering if this only applies to specific titles or occassions. I say that because there was no mention of this until now: when PS3 titles started hitting 1080p. It's interesting nevertheless, but I'm still a bit skeptical about how much of it being an equal trade off to the other.

[xbdestroya]

I was thinking this as well. Just like backwards compatibility, I'm thinking there is something he isn't tell us about the limits with going with such a solution. So I'm kinda wondering if this only applies to specific titles or occassions. I say that because there was no mention of this until now: when PS3 titles started hitting 1080p. It's interesting nevertheless, but I'm still a bit skeptical about how much of it being an equal trade off to the other.

Well, I don't think the announcement coincided with PS3 1080p titles so much as the announcement of 1080p support for HD-DVD. I'm still pretty unclear as to what's going on game-wise, so I hope some clarification comes onto the scene on this.

[jaxmkii]

LOL@MS trying to play catchup


A representative for Microsoft told GameSpot that all existing titles can be upscaled to 1080p, and the system will also be able to handle content created specifically for the 1080p resolution. However, it falls on developers to make that content. Microsoft did not announce any games that will take advantage of 1080p resolution im sure that they want to try and develop for a option that the machine was never ment to perform.

watch out for fallinf frame rates!!!

LMAO so much for "720p is the gamers choice"

*cough -backpeddiling-cough*

[FantasyGhost]

Let's not forget the pricetag, $399 for the Premium 20GB HDD. + an external HD-DVD to play it on 1080p. Without HDMI connection. Comes price maybe more then the PS3 $599 version with less HDD and no HDMI. There goes the theory "i won't buy it because it's too expensive".

[yoshaw]

^ Great point Ghost.

But everyone ... IIRC, wasn't this thread about 720 vs. 1080. And not PS3 vs. 360. Let us not go that route.

[NickSCFC]

www.joystiq.com has reported that Xbox 360 will support 1080p through a Live update later this year (probably leading to all new 360s manufactured with 1080p built in).

It also says that 360 will be able to upscale any content (Xbox games, Xbox 360 games, DVD) to 1080p.

Surely if a game like Halo 3 was developed for 720p and maxed out the 360CPU it wouldn't be able to be upscaled?

[Luis]

Discussing 360 in the PS3 forum already?

[NickSCFC]

If you look at the article it says 360 will be able to upscale all content to 1080p, but how can it upscale a 720p game that makes full use of the processor?

[Luis]

What about discussing that in the 360 forum? :duh:

[NickSCFC]

|The subject is about PS3 games being at 720p instead of 1080p to help the processor handle other things.

I think it's relevent.

[Luis]

You're only discussing 360's abilities regarding 720p and 1080p. And do you see any reply?

[frosty]

well, since we're derailing, 360 will also only be able to output 1080p at 30fps over it's component connection.

[xbdestroya]

|The subject is about PS3 games being at 720p instead of 1080p to help the processor handle other things.

I think it's relevent.

I don't mind that the 360 1080p announcement get brought up in this thread actually, but I want to clarify that it's not the 'processor' (CPU) that would be the deciding factor in 720p or 1080p for either the 360 or PS3; it's the GPU.

[jaxmkii]

well, since we're derailing, 360 will also only be able to output 1080p at 30fps over it's component connection. so than its not realy 1080p then?

[OmniStalgic]

^Read XB above post guys...I still don't see why this is turning into a debate. PS3 is pricey--but it comes w/all that extra stuff that some people take for granted, others cherish, and some don't give a crap about. 360 is simply offering a supplement because the machine is capable of it. If u want all the bells and whistles u know which system to get--If HD isn't that big of deal then it just comes down to software selection.

[frosty]

No, it is really 1080p, just 1080p30. Won't be good for fast paced games, though an RPG may benefit from it.

[cliffbo]

huh? i was under the impression it was upscaled to 1080p on the 360 not a native 1080p as on ps3 in short a fix so they can claim to be the same as ps3.

:)

[woundingchaney]

LOL@MS trying to play catchup

im sure that they want to try and develop for a option that the machine was never ment to perform.

watch out for fallinf frame rates!!!

LMAO so much for "720p is the gamers choice"

*cough -backpeddiling-cough*
Well with the architecture of both Gpus I dont see why it would perform inferior to the RSX, it may infact hold a higher framerate depending on the circumstances.

This MS 1080p is nonsense, it seems to be simple upscaling. There will be no titles that are released native to the resolution and if there are I cant see them arriving until the latter portion of the lifecycle. Also there is an issue with the capability being a Live/internet update, but this of course could just be included on any disk that supports the 1080p feature. It of course is a waranted addition but at the same time nothing to do cartwheels over.

Wouldnt Sony consumers that bought the regular model be subject to 1080p @30 as well????

[Smokey]

as someone else said (crossbar) more competition, keeps them on their toes :)

[Viano]

is x2 going to have any 1080p game? if not .. well.. just oh well...

[cliffbo]

microsoft has already stated that they will NOT be supporting hd-dvd gaming so unless they have suddenly changed their minds don`t expect any true 1080p games at all.

:)

[xbdestroya]

Wait, what's HD-DVD gaming have to do with 1080p gaming? You know they're completely unrelated, right Cliffbo? :smoke:

[frosty]

^exactly. I do wonder how they plan on doing decent 1080p via component, as it maxes out the cable's bandwidth and makes it more vulnerable to interferance if you have crappy cables. Also, 1080p30 is all component can handle, so no 60 FPS for 360 at 1080p. I seriously question if any 360 game will run true native 1080p without upscaling. Also, any games upscaled to 1080p will get dumbed down to 30 FPS.

[cliffbo]

no xb the fact that the 1080p announcement was stated at the same time as the hd-dvd addon was shown insinuates that the addon can be used for 1080p game support as they have stated that games can be upscaled to 1080p and also many site posters are interpreting this as an indication of using the addon as a larger storage device to help create native 1080p support incuding games.

:)