60 fps or 30 fps? (preemptive strike)

[Viano]

but personally I have no doubt there will be more games with 60fps

[cliffbo]

but personally I have no doubt there will be more games with 60fps

the idea of this thread was to point out that the difference between multiplatform games on the 360 and the PS3 will not be graphics at first but will be framerate.

[Viano]

well I meant if you look at many PS2 titles right now they are 60 fps even it's limited to some genres only.

framerate is going up, graphics is going up, nohting to complain.

[cliffbo]

its ironic how so many people think i'm asking for the world on a stick with this thread. the only reason i started it in the first place was because i noted many 360 users were saying that you didn't need blu-ray (because they never had it) didn't need 1080p (because they didn't have it) quite happy to pay for online (because they have to) and then framerates began to be discussed ie. Gears of War... preemtive strike: framerates would be the final denial. then the thread turned to whether all games would be at 60fps?! its the comparisons of games on the 360 and the PS3 that i was pointing to.

[woundingchaney]

the idea of this thread was to point out that the difference between multiplatform games on the 360 and the PS3 will not be graphics at first but will be framerate.
Do you have any proof that the PS3 games will have steadier framerates than 360 games or what is it that leads you to believe so????

[woundingchaney]

its ironic how so many people think i'm asking for the world on a stick with this thread. the only reason i started it in the first place was because i noted many 360 users were saying that you didn't need blu-ray (because they never had it) didn't need 1080p (because they didn't have it) quite happy to pay for online (because they have to) and then framerates began to be discussed ie. Gears of War... preemtive strike: framerates would be the final denial. then the thread turned to whether all games would be at 60fps?! its the comparisons of games on the 360 and the PS3 that i was pointing to.
What conclusion are you drawing from this comparison????
We havent even seen any impressive PS3 games only impressive demos (other than of course the gameplay presentation of HS), and what does any of this have to do with framerate???

I personally dont understand what you are basing your statements on other than you "want" PS3 games to have better framerates.

[cliffbo]

What conclusion are you drawing from this comparison????
We havent even seen any impressive PS3 games only impressive demos (other than of course the gameplay presentation of HS), and what does any of this have to do with framerate???

I personally dont understand what you are basing your statements on other than you "want" PS3 games to have better framerates.

i stand by my words wounding... you just wait and see.

[venomv]

You do realize the PS3 would need twice the graphical power in order for devs to kick it up to 60fps from 30fps without much work, right? I don't doubt that the PS3 is more powerful then the 360, but I highly doubt it is twice as much.

[woundingchaney]

i stand by my words wounding... you just wait and see.
Very well Cliff but when/if you are wrong Im calling you on it.

[cliffbo]

You do realize the PS3 would need twice the graphical power in order for devs to kick it up to 60fps from 30fps right?

venom, i don't think every game will run at 60fps but i do believe that a lot of multi platform games are more likely to run at 60fps on the ps3 and so 360 owners will say 30fps is enough. surely that clears it up!

[cliffbo]

Very well Cliff but when/if you are wrong Im calling you on it.

i'm looking forward to it... if i'm wrong then so be it.

[cliffbo]

Ahem...


Frame rates vary for a number of reasons. It actually factors in considerably in the visual department because smoother and stable frame rates look better. While 30 FPS is well-playable, 60 FPS at the same visual quality will just make the game feel much better.

The reason why I mention this here is that PC games typically showcase very unstable frame rates. Unless your PC is far beyond the recommended requirements of a game, you will probably notice that most games have frame rates dropping to around 10-15 in certain parts, and going up to 30 or more during others. I’m not completely blaming this on developers since they have a lot of different hardware to worry about, but it is something that degrades the overall pleasure of playing a game. Playstation and Nintendo (sorry, Xbox360 and original have shown some awfully ugly frame rate drops similar to those seen on PCs), have historically shown games with less frame rate variation.

[venomv]

And........

[cliffbo]

60fps at 1080p YES!

:)

[Nameless]

Someone may have mentioned this, but NBA live is confirmed for 60fps 1080P resolution. Now considering this is a launch window title, it's complete proof that 60fps, detailed characters & enviornments and 1080P can coexist on the PS3. It just seems like a lot of people who know nothing about actual game development make statements about 1080P and it becomes fact...

A lot of the 1080P naysayers have been proven wrong, because most of their claims were made based on assumptions. You know what they say about assumptions... Peace

[cpiasminc]

Now considering this is a launch window title, it's complete proof that 60fps, detailed characters & enviornments and 1080P can coexist on the PS3.
Much as I don't want to speak words like "impossible", I have to wonder about the "detailed environments" part of that. Detailed characters, sure, but there are various ways to do that. However, does a basketball arena really qualify as a particularly detailed environment? You'd be surprised what you can get away with when inside a closed environment with a lot of objects grouped together. To say nothing of the fact that the draw distance can be cut down to Dynasty Warriors level since you're indoors.

Well, nonetheless, it's so much more convenient to think that graphics power is the only barrier, when it rarely is even the biggest one. I get the impression from the E3 demos that they spent the bulk of their time on the player animation subsystem and blending of transition animations.

[Nameless]

CPI, I figured someone would make the statement about the closed environments and I agree you have a point... I'm just basically trying to express that 60FPS & 1080P is possible and we are seeing it with launch titles! I never stated that 1080P should be a standard for all PS2 games, because that would be a ludicrous request IMO, but some genres are very suitable for the resolution especially sports titles.

I guess the one statement that really pisses me off is when people who have no technical background make statements like 1080P means that something was technically sacrificed to achieve the resolution. I think that type of statement is ignorant and misleading... I would assume you would agree with that statement. Peace

[cliffbo]

Much as I don't want to speak words like "impossible", I have to wonder about the "detailed environments" part of that. Detailed characters, sure, but there are various ways to do that. However, does a basketball arena really qualify as a particularly detailed environment? You'd be surprised what you can get away with when inside a closed environment with a lot of objects grouped together. To say nothing of the fact that the draw distance can be cut down to Dynasty Warriors level since you're indoors.

Well, nonetheless, it's so much more convenient to think that graphics power is the only barrier, when it rarely is even the biggest one. I get the impression from the E3 demos that they spent the bulk of their time on the player animation subsystem and blending of transition animations.

you'll fight to the bitter end LOL but the non techs will win :)

[Rubbernek]

Capcom's Framework Engine runs at 30fps on XBOX 360 (they said 60fps is nigh on impossible).

The same engine runs at 60fps on PS3 (DMC4).

[cliffbo]

Capcom's Framework Engine runs at 30fps on XBOX 360 (they said 60fps is nigh on impossible).

The same engine runs at 60fps on PS3 (DMC4).

if that is true then thats vindication of this preemptive strike thread and a bad day for MS...

[cpiasminc]

you'll fight to the bitter end LOL but the non techs will win :)
ummmm.... okay. If you mean that I can't make you want it any less, then okay. Want all you like, but you can't always get what you want, and if you think you "need" 60, well, give up.

I agree with what Nameless said about people not in the know making assumptions about how impossible things are, but I also happen to agree with the converse -- namely, people not in the know making assumptions about how possible something is. And I fail to see anything at any point anywhere on the net where high framerate is denoted as something that should be expected simply because "it's next-gen."


if that is true then thats vindication of this preemptive strike thread and a bad day for MS...
One game is vindication? I mean, I'm working on something that's targeting 60 fps at the moment (though it's not even started production, so we're comfortably at 400 fps), but does that really prove anything?

[Nameless]

I'm working on something that's targeting 60 fps at the moment (though it's not even started production, so we're comfortably at 400 fps), but does that really prove anything? That's hillarious! I think you should get a job in marketing for the publishers...

[cliffbo]

there is a world between numbers that exists, where speculation and imagination motivates and not the impossibility of things. be a realist by all means, but don,t expect that to give you all the answers... Only dreams can do that...

[cpiasminc]

Dreams can betray you. The real universe cannot. After all, the universe was never on your side to begin with; How can it betray you?

BTW, in case you were wondering the targeting of 60 fps on the titles I'm working on are a case where I do think the idea makes perfect sense. I don't see it making perfect sense everywhere. In general, though, even if something stops you, you can cheat away a lot, and cheats n' hacks is the basis of game development.

[Luis]

cheats n' hacks is the basis of game development.Wow: I didn't know the basis of game development was chopping your wife's lover!

...

Dreadful joke, I know :tardbang:

[cliffbo]

the world is full of impossibilities that saw the light of day solely because someone ignored numbers.

[Fazares]

frankly...i m happy enough with ms running at 30fps or mgs4 if its the case...

[cpiasminc]

the world is full of impossibilities that saw the light of day solely because someone ignored numbers.
That's interesting coming from someone who's espousing endlessly repetitious sentiments of the superiority of 60 fps vs. 30 fps. I'm sure the impossibilities you speak of include things like alien abductions, unicorns, and fairies. Yeah, the answers to every game development problem can be found in a rainbow.

A game is a pile of computations directed at solving specific subsets of NP problems along with the numbers for those computations. There is no such thing as a miracle. Get over it.

[section]

a pile of computations directed at solving specific subsets of NP problems along with the numbers for those computationsI gather you still like Cell processor? ;)

[rob the slob]

Capcom's Framework Engine runs at 30fps on XBOX 360 (they said 60fps is nigh on impossible).

The same engine runs at 60fps on PS3 (DMC4).
Oh please. If you compare LP to DMC4 you would see that LP has tons more special effects, wayyyyyyyy bigger enviroments and alot more enemies on screen . Might as well compare Splinter Cell's graphics to GTA.

[Luis]

Oh please. If you compare LP to DMC4 you would see that LP has tons more special effects, wayyyyyyyy bigger enviroments and alot more enemies on screen . Might as well compare Splinter Cell's graphics to GTA.Lost Planet is almost finished and DMC4 is a year away from being released at least. That's more important than the fact that DMC4 runs at a framerate twice as high as LP's (in fact, in its current state, DMC4 developers said that it performs at 100 fps but the game is going to be locked at 60, which gives a lot of room for improvement even much before it's finished). Besides, how much have you seen of DMC4 anyway?

[ZipIt]

But you still have to consider the effects present in the dmc games. Those sword combos and fighting quite a number of enemies in one screen. It should use more resource, right?

[OmniStalgic]

That's interesting coming from someone who's espousing endlessly repetitious sentiments of the superiority of 60 fps vs. 30 fps. I'm sure the impossibilities you speak of include things like alien abductions, unicorns, and fairies. Yeah, the answers to every game development problem can be found in a rainbow.

A game is a pile of computations directed at solving specific subsets of NP problems along with the numbers for those computations. There is no such thing as a miracle. Get over it.LOL nice post man...Games are definitely 95% numbers, calculus, algorithims, and things I never even want to learn about. I think what Cliffbo was stressing tho is that barries sometimes are broken. And some things that devs think are impossible are simply impossible because of their lack of imagination. As advanced as today's computers are-it's a small fraction of the capabilites of what's inside our skull. Our makeup is so advanced that there's simply no explanation for some of the things that go on in our bodies and minds-That's why religions are here. But not to get too far off topic-Even if only a couple games go 60fps i wouldn't mind. U really don't even notice it if the game is smooth anyway.

DMC4 is the best ACtion game EVER btw!! if they can get at 60fps that's just icing on the cake...

@Rob thes lob-that is so not a FAIR comparision son...wait till games come out till they're finished. There even made by the same company. Why would they produce one game so Vastly superior than the other in such a close time frame:huh:

[cpiasminc]

I think what Cliffbo was stressing tho is that barries sometimes are broken. And some things that devs think are impossible are simply impossible because of their lack of imagination.
That's fine if he'd at least put it that way. I mean, I often solve problems in my dreams -- but all of my dreams are equations -- I literally visualize search algorithms on 6-dimensional isosurfaces when I sleep. Yes, I'm a sad individual. But that's a far cry from "ignoring numbers." I've debunked a number of theoretical foundations in various fields in the past because I didn't overlook the nature of the problem domains that so many others had been doing, not because I abandoned it. "Numbers" is everything there can ever be.

One of the things about "impossible" in computer science is that many things are provably impossible (disregarding the trivial infinitely-long approach). The thing is that these proofs ultimately have the common vein of referring to the generic solution -- well, in games you don't usually apply a generic solution anyway, you try to solve it for a finite few cases that you're expecting to run across. That's why non-determinism hurts... bad. But of course, the public wants more non-determinism because "it's next-gen"... so you work out approximations and limit the domain of your non-determinism. Oh, but you have this other problem in that they want more of these... so you have to divide out how the resources are allocated and perform segmented updating. Oh, but that creates lag issues, and it doesn't quite agree too well with most multithreading models when you start partitioning problems. So you partition everything so that they're all happy. Oh, but that's no good, now the game's framerate is actually getting ahead of the game's activity. Oh, but they want their 60 fps, so you segment things a little less... but this creates memory addressing problems because you've already broken things into blocks that are of enough granularity that you tend to stay in one page per frame. Latency shoots up (even though it's actually shooting up to what you *should* have expected in the first place), so you have to cut back on per-unit content... oh, but this doesn't make gamers or artists happy because they think everything should be unique because "next-gen means textures shouldn't ever have to tile again" and artists end up having to work harder to get more punch out of less data... But then the publisher says, "Oh, that's no good... you're going to miss your milestones, and you wouldn't want to be sued for every penny you're worth, now would you?"... and it just goes on and on. If these things didn't happen, game development cycle times would probably shrink by half.

All I'm saying is that the ultimate impossibility in all endeavours is to have everything. And the only problem is that the only thing any idiot wants is everything.

[OmniStalgic]

=-o! Lol...you've just squashed any POSSIBLE thought I had of Ever venturing into the gaming business...I'll just keep it as a hobby thank u very much. Some of us gamers just like to talk tho-When PS3 comes out I doubt any1 will be talking about framerates and such once some quality games are in front of them. The only reason I'm posting so much now is because were almost at that shift-from current-gen to next-gen w/the launch of the Wii & PS3. Certainly tho-as much as I hate math, and trust me I hate it. I respect it tremendously. EVERYTHING is comprised of some type of equation. EVERYTHING has a measurement. THe persipitation system, gravity, distance, yes EVERYTHING is math. Games-which basically imitate these functions of life and try to exaggerate certain effects are no different. I admire ur ability to problem solve tho man. It certainly is not for every1. U should post more often...:salute:

[cpiasminc]

=-o! Lol...you've just squashed any POSSIBLE thought I had of Ever venturing into the gaming business...
Nice to know I can inspire future generations. I would say you could always get into art, but even artists are needing to be abreast of more now than they used to be. The vast majority of texture layers we apply these days tend to be numerical or joint numerical/color as opposed to strictly color information. Sometimes even color textures get a kick in the nuts -- Bungie, for instance, has been making a big todo about linearizing light space by undoing gamma correction internally which affects textures just the same.

Well, I suppose there's always concept art, but not much more.


Some of us gamers just like to talk tho-When PS3 comes out I doubt any1 will be talking about framerates and such once some quality games are in front of them.
Maybe... that can sometimes be a game-to-game thing. But the vast majority of things will certainly be forgotten, because they'll all be status quo.

[Smokey]

imo you only "need" 60fps in racing (fast moving) games for smoothness :)

[Viper]

The mantra all along by the tech side has been 60 fps is possible but not the norm. It's never been that 60 fps @ 1080p was impossible, just not the norm.

1 game, a B-ball game no less, is not validation of 60fps being the norm.

This is not a matter of it being a next gen system, that's the most irrelevent factor in the debate. This is a matter of output vs input. The more graphical input, the less frame rate output.

If you can put 2 fat people on opposite ends of a see-saw and break the laws of physics by raising both ends up with out any outside influences, I'll take back everything I've posted on the subject.

[woundingchaney]

Lost Planet is almost finished and DMC4 is a year away from being released at least. That's more important than the fact that DMC4 runs at a framerate twice as high as LP's (in fact, in its current state, DMC4 developers said that it performs at 100 fps but the game is going to be locked at 60, which gives a lot of room for improvement even much before it's finished). Besides, how much have you seen of DMC4 anyway?
The scale of both games are different, the time frame is different. And its very often that framerate standard drops before release. But once again still an 06 game compared to an 07 or 08 game (most likely 07).

Im really liking both game though.

[Luis]

The scale of both games are different, the time frame is different.Yes, I know. Go tell that to the one who's trying to compare apples to oranges while trying to make apples seem better than oranges just because he thinks so.


And its very often that framerate standard drops before release.That won't be the case of DMC4. All DMC games have run at 60 fps to date and it's already been officially announced by the developers themselves that it will remain this way, and it looks like they still have a wide margin to improve everything else.

[woundingchaney]

Yes, I know. Go tell that to the one who's trying to compare apples to oranges while trying to make apples seem better than oranges just because he thinks so.

That won't be the case of DMC4. All DMC games have run at 60 fps to date and it's already been officially announced by the developers themselves that it will remain this way, and it looks like they still have a wide margin to improve everything else.
I can point to several confirmations prior to a games release that are withdrawn in time. Although that doesnt necessarily mean anything in regards to DMC4.

Right now I think the game looks pretty good in all honesty.

[cliffbo]

i love it when things go as planned. i love saying: 'I told you so' lol ;)

[Viper]

So, Cliff. Out of the 100-200 games in development, how many are 1080p 60fps?

If it's 10% or less, the "I told you so" comes from the tech guys.

[frosty]

All but one AFAIK.

[Viper]

Frosty, are you saying every game but one is 1080p 60fps?

Or the other way around?

[Viano]

well but you only need one to enjoy long long time tho loL, like rr7 will support online etc also, one game will last very long loL

[frosty]

Resistance is the only 1080p30 title I know of.

[Khaos]

When playing games, I only notice when the rate goes below around 25fps, but its always nice to have that 'buffer' such as when graphic intense scenes lower the fps. But I think of 60 as the max... Anything above that seems to be wasted cpu and gpu cycles.

[cliffbo]

they may not all be 1080p/60 but i seem to remember alot of people claiming it would not happen at all due to too much geometry/on screen characters/fill rates/refresh rates etc... i won`t mention names you know who you are.

and i never said all games would be 1080p/60 i just said we should demand it or it will not happen so go ahead try to justify your side of the argument by nitpicking!

:)

[Nameless]

Ridge Racer looks extremely impressive in first person mode. The 60FPS and 1080P resolution with blur and HDR looks amazing, the sense of speed is 2nd to none...

If your computer is powerful enough to run this HD video check it out.
http://media6.xboxyde.com/59d295cbdcccf05fa665b47cadc4cc82/tgs06_rr7_720p50.wmv

[Luis]

Ridge Racer looks extremely impressive in first person mode. The 60FPS and 1080P resolution with blur and HDR looks amazing, the sense of speed is 2nd to none...

If your computer is powerful enough to run this HD video check it out.Let's use this link instead (http://www.playsyde.com/news_3697_en.html) :) (warning: not representative of what 50 fps or 60 fps are like)

[Smokey]

thanks VG & Nameless :) i dont have a vid card so ill see how it goes LOL

[Luis]

I looked at that video and to be honest, it's very poorly encoded. It's not representative of what 50 fps should be at all.

However, take a look at this true 60 fps video:

Ridge Racer 7 - TGS 2006 trailer (60fps version) (mms://wmt9-od.stream.ne.jp/vod11/bngi/R7_PV-1.wmv)

Now imagine this running at 1080p =-o

[Nameless]

^ I can't agree; that video is not a native 720P trailer it looks like sh*t IMO...
The video from playsyde is resource heavy, but it was captured with a HD camera and the first person view really gives a sense of speed. I was not impressed with the TGS trailer you just provide a link for, because it's a low resolution trailer man...

It's all good, I just don't agree that the video above is a good representation of the game. Peace

[Luis]

It's all good, I just don't agree that the video above is a good representation of the game. PeaceDuh.

I'll take a low resolution but properly encoded video anytime over a poorly encoded video that doesn't represent the sense of speed of the game. Playside own videos are terribly encoded.

[Smokey]

well the one from VGs link played good in my computer & i only have onboard graphics LOL & it 2.5 yrs old

edit: i cant find it on your link nameless?

[yoshaw]

About the thread title.

I wish Ubisoft titles get a consistant framerate when they go final. I saw the latest 1up show and SC:DoubleAgent is looking really jittery at this stage in development when it is very close to it's launch. Same I noticed with another Ubisoft title, Rainbow6:LasVegas, which also had framerate issues and afaik is also a launch title on PS3 as well as appearing at the same time on 360.

Does anyone know if Ubisoft ever committed to a fixed framerate no. like a 30 or 60 in any of its interviews related to their games coming out in the Fall this year?

[Luis]

About the thread title.

I wish Ubisoft titles get a consistant framerate when they go final. I saw the latest 1up show and SC:DoubleAgent is looking really jittery at this stage in development when it is very close to it's launch. Same I noticed with another Ubisoft title, Rainbow6:LasVegas, which also had framerate issues and afaik is also a launch title on PS3 as well as appearing at the same time on 360.

Does anyone know if Ubisoft ever committed to a fixed framerate no. like a 30 or 60 in any of its interviews related to their games coming out in the Fall this year?Given the nature of Ubisoft titles, I'm afraid slowdowns are going to be all around the place. I'm talking about my experience with their games too.

[Nameless]

I'm starting to think it's ubisoft and other developers, because some games on the 360 have a solid frame rate, but many suffer from frame rate issues. I honestly believe many developers are porting XBox code to the 360 and increasing the poly count and throwing in shaders to pretty up the graphics, but the actual engines are not using the power of the architecture. I have been really impressed with PS3 development, because they are not simply porting last gen engines to power PS3 titles. I'm sure many will not agree with my thoughts, but I think this theory is plausible... Peace