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Handycrap101
05-13-2005, 01:11 AM
Ok guys post all of your thoughts on the revealing here... This includes anything that was mentioned during the premiere like games, hardware, software and such.

BlueTsunami
05-13-2005, 01:14 AM
WHO ARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

Illmatic
05-13-2005, 01:18 AM
Xbox 360 pre-MTV unveiling vid

The final reward from OurColony.net (http://msxb.wmod.llnwd.net/a274/o2/ourcolony/TheColony_v1_750k.wmv)

BlueTsunami
05-13-2005, 01:28 AM
IT STARTED!!!!!

EDIT: I get the feeling.....that this show is going to be about licking Microsofts ass.....god....please...I hope not...ll

CHANGED THE WORLD OF VIDEO GAMES>????? LOL they actually stated that!!!! and they went from PONG straight to XBOX!!!!!

EDIT: 9:31PM.....Who gives a shit about the Killers?....ugh

I just watched the Our Colony thing about the XBox 360...and...it stated that the CPU is water cooled. WOW

Viper
05-13-2005, 01:28 AM
They said 1 trillion flops.


Given the specs I saw before...how?

Mordecai
05-13-2005, 01:58 AM
Was anyone else really disappointed by this? I mean seriously... what footage they showed of the 360 games pretty much sucked because you couldn't get a good idea of graphics... And what graphics I did see weren't all that great. The only games that looked good to me were PD0 and Madden, and maybe Project Gotham... I'm extremely disappointed by what I saw and I really hope that we see better stuff coming up at E3.

Edit: The faceplate thing looked pretty stupid... I can have mostly white with some swirly colors?? And also, I hate the idea of an online marketplace on my game console.

BlueTsunami
05-13-2005, 02:00 AM
Perfect Dark Zero wasn't even that good (graphically wise). Is that there standard for Next Generation Gamming?....

senas8
05-13-2005, 02:04 AM
They said 1 trillion flops.

Isn't this what sony was aiming for?

rev>thanu
05-13-2005, 02:05 AM
WTF was that, that had to be the worst unveiling ever where are the official specs. perfect dark zero looked like it could be accomplished with this gen xbox and the only games that did impressed me were the flashed clip shown of one of unreal 3.0 engine's monsters and EA's games. seriously the show was more about celebrity publicity than the actual console. the games were shown so fast that it was like having serious flashbacks of the night you get drunk or something. It's also pretty sad that microsoft has to rely on MTV to actually make their console popular and heard of. what total waste of half an hour that was.

Homeru
05-13-2005, 02:07 AM
i just saw it and im not dissapointed but was expecting a bit more i guess. its not a ps1 to ps2 leap but its a leap.

i was hoping them to show off more gamplay and more stuff.

Handycrap101
05-13-2005, 02:07 AM
it did kinda suck... Perfect dark looks promissing (game-wise) but the graphics dont look like they are next gen.. maybe just a step below.

Junox50
05-13-2005, 02:08 AM
I agree. I didnt like it too much either. In the beginning all they did was talk and show stuff off that wasent even that important. The only thing that was decent was the Perfect dark zero game. Everything else was lame. I didnt even get to see what the console was capable of. I saw a few videos, but they zipped threw them so quick I couldnt even see them. :x

xbdestroya
05-13-2005, 02:08 AM
About the 1 TFlop comment (same as J Allard said, by the way), an answer of mine reposted from another thread:

"It's just the GPU that's bringing it to that flop-rating. NVidia even with it's current gen claims over a terraflop of performance on their GPU's, so in the world of Xbox, this is just par for the course. Remember the crazy flops number sthey were claiming with XBox 1? This is no different - just brought up to speed for the year 2005."

Viper
05-13-2005, 02:08 AM
Was Sony correct in calling it Xbox 1.5?

Homeru
05-13-2005, 02:09 AM
it did suck ass but thats what e3 is for.

Junox50
05-13-2005, 02:10 AM
Was Sony correct in calling it Xbox 1.5?

So far...............yes

Handycrap101
05-13-2005, 02:12 AM
Im telling all of you, not asking you.. telling. Everyone quote me on this.
START QUOTING ME...
In the end, when its all sead and done Sony will produce the better overall next generation gaming console.
END QUOTING.

ok well im sorry microsoft but that was pathetic.

Homeru
05-13-2005, 02:13 AM
Now that sony and nintendo know what xb360 can do, i wonder what they are planning?

TEEDA
05-13-2005, 02:14 AM
LoooooL LOoooL rofl !!!!

what a joke .

look at Unreal tournament 2007 , ok the game is due to be released next year but , the early screens came from current PCs :lol: :lol: :lol:
LoooL

nesman
05-13-2005, 02:14 AM
Maybe they're saving the "WOW!!!!" for E3 or at TGS. But hopefully PS3 and Revolution will start stealing the hype show by then with tech demos and maybe even game demos of what's been completed so far.

RichardCypher101
05-13-2005, 02:15 AM
I noticed that when asked how the graphics were for PDZ, they instantly skipped around (To create the perception that people who were watching the program dont care about the technicalities. When they were probably covering up a lot of technical details that explain why PDZ looks the way it does.). Ah well, thats my take on that part. Overall, I was expecting a little more. I didnt know it was a half hour only.

-Rich

EDIT: Btw, with what I seen tonight, I wouldnt mind calling it the Xbox 1.5.

zenodaddy
05-13-2005, 02:19 AM
The dreamcast way back when had a better unveiling...

This XBox 1.5 looks to be a rushed out attempt at gaining market share, what a sad, sad, sad unveiling.

Maybe someone should have told Microsoft that is they were going to spend millions unveiling the system on MTV they should have actually spent some major time thinking on how to make the system look better... Now I think Sony and Nintendo have nothing to worry about.

Handycrap101
05-13-2005, 02:20 AM
Here is a few links for stuff on Xbox 1.5

some unimpressive graphics.. seriously they are bad
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/612/612996p1.html

igns updated site for the new 1.5 (notice the typo .. 360??? what is that crap?)
http://xbox360.ign.com/

OMG THIS IS A N64 GAME RIGHT???
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/612/612014p1.html

edofall
05-13-2005, 02:24 AM
Was anyone else really disappointed by this? I mean seriously... what footage they showed of the 360 games pretty much sucked because you couldn't get a good idea of graphics... And what graphics I did see weren't all that great. The only games that looked good to me were PD0 and Madden, and maybe Project Gotham... I'm extremely disappointed by what I saw and I really hope that we see better stuff coming up at E3.

Edit: The faceplate thing looked pretty stupid... I can have mostly white with some swirly colors?? And also, I hate the idea of an online marketplace on my game console.

i 100% agree with the "Not to quality games" its next gen hardware showing last years pc games...Except madden, that was friggin sweet

xbdestroya
05-13-2005, 02:27 AM
Now that sony and nintendo know what xb360 can do, i wonder what they are planning?

Now that they've seen 'what it can do,' I'm not sure they need to change their plans. :wink:

raVen
05-13-2005, 02:28 AM
The only area I see sony losing might be in its online service, if it can nail something better the Xbox Live it'll win no competition... I know there are people who dont agree with me and that great you dont have to respond to this I just want to make sure you all heard me say it before it happens.

senas8
05-13-2005, 02:28 AM
Dam it it's only 7:30 here in seattle ...going to have to wait another 2 hour.

rev>thanu
05-13-2005, 02:34 AM
Mordecaii

what footage they showed of the 360 games pretty much sucked because you couldn't get a good idea of graphics...

that's because the graphics were so bad they had to flash them in a rush so you really couldn't get an idea of how bad they looked. :lol:

raVen
05-13-2005, 02:34 AM
Don't wait two hours

http://www.gametrailers.com/gamepage.php?id=1589

Unveiling... Merry Christmas

nemesis121
05-13-2005, 02:37 AM
MS has to really impressed me come E3, because after that MTV crap i will be waiting for Ps3 instead, and just wait for xbox 2 to drop in price, that showing was dull and boring.

Perfect dark 0 was really crappy the guy asked how many polygons/character and he said 5000 for a xbox 360 game, xbox 1 uses 10000/character and the other games looked like they were all cutscenes no actual real footage.

klaymen
05-13-2005, 02:37 AM
In the end, when its all sead and done Sony will produce the better overall next generation gaming console.


are you sure you want said to be spelled wrong when we quote you?

raVen
05-13-2005, 02:39 AM
Ok it was that it just wasnt anything thats going to revolutionize gaming... graphic wise

spyshagg
05-13-2005, 02:40 AM
Now that sony and nintendo know what xb360 can do, i wonder what they are planning?

i know!
they are saying to each other: "hell friends, lets get some Beer and just do a little upgrade on the Ps2! lets put a GPu and some Vram on that EE and thats enough.... Lets save PS3 for 2010"

i would....
oh wait, i cannot forget Revolution!

Handycrap101
05-13-2005, 02:40 AM
^^^^^ lol whoops... fix it plz?

klaymen
05-13-2005, 02:45 AM
i wonder how long this will take to get torrented. i didn't get a chance to see it. but from the sounds of it, it seems like i didn't miss much. pretty much everything that was on ign.

Handycrap101
05-13-2005, 02:48 AM
did anyone happen to see the d/l count on gametrailers.com for the revealing?? last i saw it was 32,000+ and its been less then an hour since it ended... geez louise people are in for a disapointment

raVen
05-13-2005, 02:48 AM
Last post for me has to be said: When all the dust is cleared generations from now the winner of the console war will be he who has the pimp my ride crew create their design

rev>thanu
05-13-2005, 02:51 AM
Klaymen you really didn't miss much. i think i saw more celebrity faces than the actual games or console. they showed it once, they didn't even show the controller. it's xbox 1.5 and it will be microsofts downfall.
if they so claim xbox 360 is 1 teraflop performance i say ps3 is 26 times that then.

Mordecai
05-13-2005, 02:53 AM
ROFL @ raVen... Yeah, that "pimp my xbox" thing was pretty stupid... was there even a point to it? I kept wondering when they would say "Hey guys, we spray painted a skull on here, put a LCD screen on top, but DAMN it's still ugly and huge!!!" Hehe that was classic...

TEEDA
05-13-2005, 02:56 AM
http://www.minstrum.net/destrado/clic.php3?url=ftp://ftp2.minstrum.net/minstrum/MTVXbox3601.mpg

first 3 minutes of the show ,
please , if it s not legal delete it i don t know if it is or not
my excuses if it s not .

delta110
05-13-2005, 03:05 AM
i don't wanna sound like a sony fanboy or anything....but that was horrible. i am still surprised at how horrible they did. what pisses me off is about 1:00 min into the show they bring out the killers (who the hell cares i wanna see the games!) then after that 7 mins in it they go to commercial (this is MTV we're talking about so this isnt a big surprise) after mentally punching me in the face with there ad's they go back in it....a woman walks out and sets the 360 on this stand thingy....ok good....but thanks to MTV's stupid camera angles i could barely get a good look at the darn thing....they kept weveing the camera all over the place switching to different angles and crap like that.

this happens for about 5 secs. they go to the games (finally) but its the same thing...crappy camera angles everytime they show a game. i couldnt see shit....and the only game that impressed me (graphics wise) was ghost recon 3. that game looks very cool. oh and about PD0. for some reason the graphics for that thing wasnt up to my expectations either. it looked like something on the xbox. and look at teamxbox....there raving with disapointment right now.


thats my opinion on the show.

TEEDA
05-13-2005, 03:14 AM
http://www.gamespot.com/live/streamer_new2.html?title=Xbox+360+Hardware:+Inside +and+Out&path=xbox360special_vf_xbox360_051205.asx &pid=927749

you can view 20 seconds of ghost recon 3 .

FerrianX
05-13-2005, 03:19 AM
After watching this 'unveiling' i'm almost 100% of why they tagged this system with its 360 label... went all the way around just to end up right where they started.

Sony was being generous calling it the Xbox 1.5... should be more like 1.2.

Here's hoping for some official specs at E3 :roll:

KiLLA2006
05-13-2005, 03:26 AM
Here is a few links for stuff on Xbox 1.5

some unimpressive graphics.. seriously they are bad
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/612/612996p1.html

igns updated site for the new 1.5 (notice the typo .. 360??? what is that crap?)
http://xbox360.ign.com/

OMG THIS IS A N64 GAME RIGHT???
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/612/612014p1.html

on ign go to the images of nba 2k6, it takes you to a forum with two horribly blurry screenshots and a trailer, but the most interesting part is one of the posters, obviously an xbox fanboy, asks, and i quote, "...is it going to be a 360 exclusive?" is this guy a major idiot??? why would sega sports sell out to microsoft??? i was overwhelmed with a sense of... god im glad im not a jackass... thanx xbox fanboys for giving me something to laugh about... :lol:

EDIT- did the guy say xbox 1.5 was the best kept secret in the history of gaming, is this true???

MiThRaZoR
05-13-2005, 03:30 AM
Anyone that recorded it please.. I want to see it. I don't have cable or dish or whatever.

jaxmkii
05-13-2005, 03:46 AM
knew it would be crap as soon as MTV got involved. :roll:

well well just wait untill E3 than the PS3 should hopefully show thouse Jackasses what the realworld is all about and give Xboys a real buzzkill

BTW using MTV just goes to show how much a worthless pile of a poser Bill gates is. MTVs creed is teaching the broken condoms of the world what trendy flash in the pan products to buy. :evil: ITS A FUDGING 24 HOUR SHOPING NETWORK FOR SOCIAL CLONES. i have never seen so much product placement on anything else.

only fitting that Microsofts console of the month be shown on the only network that kills strong running programs to prevent the possiblity of looking "stale"

incase you havent noticed i hate MTV more than M$ or genital warts! :D

rev>thanu
05-13-2005, 04:38 AM
Pre-E3 2005: Xbox 360 Gears of War
The visuals in this Xbox 360 title are unreal.
by David Clayman
May 12, 2005 - As far back as (early 2004)June of 2004 we have had slight glimpses of the UnrealEngine3. The demo included some foreboding architecture, a scary amount of detail, and a few shots of one ugly creature. Until now we simply referred to this artwork as a technical demo or an unannounced title using the new engine. But after visiting Microsoft to get a preview of their 360 lineup, we can safely say that these assets are from a new game from Epic called Gears of War.



This version of the Unreal Engine includes a 64 bit color pipeline, dynamic shadowing and a huge amount of texture effects. Because Epic licenses their engines out to numerous developers, this is a glimpse into the future of what many next-gen games will look like.

The trailer that we saw focused on a set of large marines dressed in futuristic armor. The team entered a large courtyard where the main character motioned for his squad to hold their position as he surveyed the area. The surrounding buildings were constructed of the same stone and metal gilding that was displayed in the UnrealEngine3 demos. The most striking aspect of the imagery was attention paid to smaller objects. Bits of ivy covered the walls and each piece of metal had its own reflective gleam.

Just as quiet settled over the marines, gun fire erupted from the abandoned building ahead of them. The camera then swooped in over the shoulder of the main character, known as Marcus Phoenix, and an aiming reticule appeared on the screen. What looked like a pre-rendered cinema was actually in-engine. Phoenix began blasting away at his unidentified targets causing structural damage to everything in his line of sight. One enemy appeared on the second floor of a building behind some boarded up windows. When fired on, the wood was ripped from the side of the structure and crashed to the ground.

It was difficult to tell what exactly was attacking the soldiers until the side of the building was torn apart in an explosion of rubble. A creature about two stories tall with a multitude of sharp teeth towered over the good guys and let out a roar as the scene faded to black. We were given another look at this monster in a slow-motion depiction of it continuing to smash through a stone building.

This third-person shooter will be available on the Xbox 360 and the PC. We were told by Peter Moore that Gears of War is currently running at 80% of the visual bar that Epic believes it can achieve on 360. It will also include online play, and should be available after the holiday season. Stick with IGN for more information on this game next week at E3.

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/612/612066p1.html


it's running on 80% of xbox's 360s peak performance already :?:
if ps3 is 3 to 4 times stronger then it would run on 10- 20 % of ps3's power. this is using the unreal 3 engine too. it's kind of sad seeing xbox 2 already reaching it's limits specially this early in the game. :twisted:[/quote]

megadrive
05-13-2005, 04:40 AM
About the 1 TFlop comment (same as J Allard said, by the way), an answer of mine reposted from another thread:

"It's just the GPU that's bringing it to that flop-rating. NVidia even with it's current gen claims over a terraflop of performance on their GPU's, so in the world of Xbox, this is just par for the course. Remember the crazy flops number sthey were claiming with XBox 1? This is no different - just brought up to speed for the year 2005."

yeah.

Xbox1 was "80 GFLOPs" (Nvidia GPU) plus 3 GFLOPs (Intel CPU)

Xbox360 is 100+ GFLOPs (IBM CPU) plus roughly 1 TFLOP or almost 1 TFLOP (ATI GPU) - together it is "1TFLOP+"

julps31
05-13-2005, 04:54 AM
Well its what I suspected from MTV. Long commercials and celebritys you don't wanna see playing the game. Show the damn game not them playing lol. But some where very impressive (the few clips they show). The Project Gotham was real nice, the Madden i'm guessing from the commercial, the NBA 2k (looked CG if it wasn't) and a few others. But I swear that Tony Hawk looked like they reused the exact same engine they used now. No improvment in the character models except slighty better textures. Well E3 will give us more info and...PS3!!!

Charlie
05-13-2005, 06:05 AM
Yeah, well when you show clips of games that have only been in development for a few months, it's natural to say they'll be unoptomized. Some of you sounded as if you expected the special to be 30 strait minutes of 100% perfect stunning gameplay footage. This is MTV for Christ'sakes. They have a seperate channel for Music Videos, and even now that channel is fasing out the Music Videos for reruns of mediocer crap previously shown on regular MTV and new programs (with the exception of Wonder Show Zen, thats damn hillarious). Where you really expecting this to be something that would make your jaw drop instead of Tony Hawk playing some random game?

Anyway, not to sound one sided, wait untill E3 when more is actually shown and said rather than just celebrity hype and asuming its going to be crap. It was underwhelming, but people this generation seem to expect alot more than what technology can currently dish out (in a non-expensive profitable form anyway).

the legendary ice man
05-13-2005, 06:51 AM
Not particularly impressed by what I've seen :(

Ironlungz
05-13-2005, 06:55 AM
Megadrive,

Xbox360 is 100+ GFLOPs (IBM CPU) plus roughly 1 TFLOP or almost 1 TFLOP (ATI GPU) - together it is "1TFLOP+"

Where are you getting these numbers from?

The GPU is near 1 tflop.. how?

imported_The_One
05-13-2005, 08:11 AM
Megadrive,

Xbox360 is 100+ GFLOPs (IBM CPU) plus roughly 1 TFLOP or almost 1 TFLOP (ATI GPU) - together it is "1TFLOP+"

Where are you getting these numbers from?

The GPU is near 1 tflop.. how? It's marketing BS, just like how nVidia claimed the GeForce 3 could crunc out 75-80GFLOp/s :roll:.

As for the actual show, it sucked pretty bad... Considering how the main focus was the next-gen gaming, the games didn't look next-gen at all. As a matter of a fact, EA's pre-rendered Madden was the best looking in-game graphics, but the kicker is that they're not :lol:. It's time to see if PS3 lives up to its hype or not, 'cause Xbox 360 definately didn't.

I managed to catch a few specs about it PD:0 running on it:
-5K poly per char (ONLY 5K? What the heck?)
-100-300K poly for enviroment
-Capable of displaying the max amount of character all on screen at once
etc.... maybe a few more things which slipped me.

Overall, I wasn't impressed.

Mordecai
05-13-2005, 08:16 AM
You know, 5k per character for Perfect Dark Zero really isn't bad when you consider they said there can be upwards of 50 characters on the screen at once... that makes 250k total polygons in characters, along with around 300k in the environments... couple that with the fact that they're running this on a dev kit with less power than the XBOX 360 will have and really the polygon counts sound pretty good. I was just disappointed because even with all those polygons, it just didn't look that good.

*G*spot
05-13-2005, 08:24 AM
There was a next-generation quantum leap in console and controller design, compareed to the Xbox. So, lets give them some credit. :P :wink:

Domination
05-13-2005, 08:27 AM
Pre-E3 2005: Xbox 360 Gears of War
The visuals in this Xbox 360 title are unreal.
by David Clayman
May 12, 2005 - As far back as (early 2004)June of 2004 we have had slight glimpses of the UnrealEngine3. The demo included some foreboding architecture, a scary amount of detail, and a few shots of one ugly creature. Until now we simply referred to this artwork as a technical demo or an unannounced title using the new engine. But after visiting Microsoft to get a preview of their 360 lineup, we can safely say that these assets are from a new game from Epic called Gears of War.



This version of the Unreal Engine includes a 64 bit color pipeline, dynamic shadowing and a huge amount of texture effects. Because Epic licenses their engines out to numerous developers, this is a glimpse into the future of what many next-gen games will look like.

The trailer that we saw focused on a set of large marines dressed in futuristic armor. The team entered a large courtyard where the main character motioned for his squad to hold their position as he surveyed the area. The surrounding buildings were constructed of the same stone and metal gilding that was displayed in the UnrealEngine3 demos. The most striking aspect of the imagery was attention paid to smaller objects. Bits of ivy covered the walls and each piece of metal had its own reflective gleam.

Just as quiet settled over the marines, gun fire erupted from the abandoned building ahead of them. The camera then swooped in over the shoulder of the main character, known as Marcus Phoenix, and an aiming reticule appeared on the screen. What looked like a pre-rendered cinema was actually in-engine. Phoenix began blasting away at his unidentified targets causing structural damage to everything in his line of sight. One enemy appeared on the second floor of a building behind some boarded up windows. When fired on, the wood was ripped from the side of the structure and crashed to the ground.

It was difficult to tell what exactly was attacking the soldiers until the side of the building was torn apart in an explosion of rubble. A creature about two stories tall with a multitude of sharp teeth towered over the good guys and let out a roar as the scene faded to black. We were given another look at this monster in a slow-motion depiction of it continuing to smash through a stone building.

This third-person shooter will be available on the Xbox 360 and the PC. We were told by Peter Moore that Gears of War is currently running at 80% of the visual bar that Epic believes it can achieve on 360. It will also include online play, and should be available after the holiday season. Stick with IGN for more information on this game next week at E3.

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/612/612066p1.html


it's running on 80% of xbox's 360s peak performance already :?:
if ps3 is 3 to 4 times stronger then it would run on 10- 20 % of ps3's power. this is using the unreal 3 engine too. it's kind of sad seeing xbox 2 already reaching it's limits specially this early in the game. :twisted:[/quote]

Whoa. That's not good at all. I would have expected 50%. It's strange, though. People were giving Sony hell about the PS2 holding its own to a console that was two years newer than it in hardware. If you were to reverse the effect with Sony ahead and not behind this time while making the same leap as they did with the PS2, the gap could be more than noticable. I'm thinking Dreamcast if not worst.

imported_The_One
05-13-2005, 08:28 AM
You know, 5k per character for Perfect Dark Zero really isn't bad when you consider they said there can be upwards of 50 characters on the screen at once... that makes 250k total polygons in characters, along with around 300k in the environments... couple that with the fact that they're running this on a dev kit with less power than the XBOX 360 will have and really the polygon counts sound pretty good. I was just disappointed because even with all those polygons, it just didn't look that good. Actually, the version we saw was running on the actual console, but yeah, I get you're point. 50 characters is A LOT... But still nothing compared to UE 3.0. UE 3.0 can have upward of 100 chars each with 15K poly. Which reminds me, I though Microsoft was going to use the UE 3.0 as its base engine for their next-gen games... So, what happened to that plan :?? Was Xbox 360 too weak to handle it :lol:?

Mordecai
05-13-2005, 08:31 AM
If they do 100 characters with 15k polys each, then I guarantee they're going to have to cut down on something... either that or they'll be copying the character frames and just reusing them. There are ways around it. Plus, how complex will the UE 3.0 environments be? It's entirely possible that PD0 could be better at some things with its engine but not quite as good at some things. Plus, you have to remember that the UE 3.0 engine is coming from one of the premier graphics engine makers in the world, of course they're going to have access to the latest technologies from other companies as well as plenty of money and time that went into their own technology. I'm sure that the UE 3.0 engine is one of the better ones we'll see in the near future but I also expect ti to be surpassed on next-gen consoles.

Goki
05-13-2005, 09:39 AM
OOOOK, so is there anywhere we (that dont have cable) can see this 30min fo MTV crap. i thought someone here was gonna record and host it here.

Leedogg
05-13-2005, 07:24 PM
i thought the show was crap the XBOX -360 was crap :lol: only 5,000 polygons for a character MGS3 snake does 5000 polygon and thats current console. That console looks more 256 GDDR3 instead of 512 GDDR3.


Leedogg

rev>thanu
05-13-2005, 07:53 PM
You know, 5k per character for Perfect Dark Zero really isn't bad when you consider they said there can be upwards of 50 characters on the screen at once... that makes 250k total polygons in characters, along with around 300k in the environments... couple that with the fact that they're running this on a dev kit with less power than the XBOX 360 will have and really the polygon counts sound pretty good. I was just disappointed because even with all those polygons, it just didn't look that good. Actually, the version we saw was running on the actual console, but yeah, I get you're point. 50 characters is A LOT... But still nothing compared to UE 3.0. UE 3.0 can have upward of 100 chars each with 15K poly. Which reminds me, I though Microsoft was going to use the UE 3.0 as its base engine for their next-gen games... So, what happened to that plan :?? Was Xbox 360 too weak to handle it :lol:?

i think is bull crap that the polygon count on the characters is so low. even if it's 50 characters on screen. heck RE4 displays up to 12 zombies on screen not including leon's character which consists of 10k polygons. each zombie is about 4-5k polygons. i mean come on it's expected for the online amount of characters to increase but i didn't expect the polygon count to be sacrificied or stay the same as in this gen. Why do you need 50 on screen characters, i think 25 is good enough for online matches. if the unreal 3.0 engine can achieve such a high amount of characters with such a high amount of polygons then why does perfect dark lags behind. i think rare is behind the times. :lol:

our pay back begins now. all those b**** that flamed and bashed the ps2 because of being weak are now going to get a good taste of their own medicine. ps3 the most powerfull console on the planet. has a rime to it doesn't it. The xbox market had me tired with the same lame excuse that xbox was so strong that it crushed ps2 graphics wise. now what do they have to say for themselfs.

I just hope ps3 comes with a bang and that they deliver.
i also hope sony upgrades the ram from 256 to 512mb and that they add another extra 256 of GDDR3 ram just for the heck of it. of course if that's possible depending on the architecture etc. since i know nothing of how chip, ram etc design works i will not say more. :lol:

Gegenki
05-13-2005, 08:02 PM
Count youselves lucky!
Here in England it kinda went like this:

Elijah (the hobbit): welcome to exbox party blah blah blah - heres some band whos name i cant remember

sigh - 5mins later

Elijah: I think you have waited long enough, here is the future of gaming.
Woman walks through clapping people, walks out into the arena, onto the stage, takes xbox 360 out of here satchel, puts it on a platform presses the power button - it comes on (without a power cord).

Elijah: Theres more after the break

I was thinking - finally. Then to my suprise they started talkin about it in the break, telling you a load of crap, people talking in different languages with subtitles about xbox 360. They said the Xbox was designed with J-lo as an idea for the shape.

Then it goes back to the show, and to my dismay, they have snow patrol and the other band talkin about each other. Then snow patrol go on stage. Then
Elijah: and we leave you with the first band

and they play their song - and that was it over!

I was like, no friken way, I wasted my time on that - I hate MTV - and that just made things worse. That was dissappointing. At least you guys got to see some games, we got nothin!

Edit: I'd also like to point out that Microsoft likes to say alot of stuff that sounds fancy but really either isn't or means nothing.
And that gametrailer thing - what control do MS have over the games to ensure that every skatboard game is fully customisable, every driving game is fuly customisable????

cpiasminc
05-13-2005, 09:32 PM
i mean come on it's expected for the online amount of characters to increase but i didn't expect the polygon count to be sacrificied or stay the same as in this gen
Ummm... that's hardly a surprise to me. All the UE3 models used polycounts well within reach of current gen console games (5-9k polys), albeit with a whole lot of effects (at least those that have had polycounts mentioned). The difference is just good art. Moreover, I've yet to see any next-gen demo that really shows per-character polycounts increase by more than maybe 20%. It's new hardware. It's invariably the case that a new console will probably have less than 1/3 of its achievable power utilized in the launch titles. For Xbox and Gamecube, it was probably about 1/2. For PS2, it was more like 1/5.

Theoretically, what would run at 30 fps on the real 360 should run at around 3-5 fps on the devkits. That's not a testable performance range, for one, and two, the guarantee is pretty tenuous. So devteams are basically going to want at least 15-20 fps on the devkits to play it safe. All these demos are more conservative than you realize. Doesn't really mean much for the final content, though, considering the majority of developers will only have 3-4 months to try it out on the real thing. That's hardly enough time to dial up new content. I'm fairly sure that most of those 3-4 months will end up being time spent making sure the darn code even RUNS on the real console.

Also, the specs on R500 pretty much read shader performance through the roof with a so-so increase in fillrate. Also, bear in mind that in real life, polycount is not as important as vertcount. Mainly because on no hardware are we pushing the tri limits or even close to it. That's because we end up eating through so much power on the vertices. And characters have the most expensive type of vertices of all -- the matrix-skinned type.

KiLLA2006
05-13-2005, 11:23 PM
since xbox360 is made from touched up current technology, is it fair to assume that launch games will be taking advantage of about 60-80% of 360's total power... meaning that in the long run a a very inferior console... just my opinon of course

jaxmkii
05-13-2005, 11:35 PM
Count youselves lucky!
Here in England it kinda went like this:

Elijah (the hobbit): welcome to exbox party blah blah blah - heres some band whos name i cant remember

sigh - 5mins later

Elijah: I think you have waited long enough, here is the future of gaming.
Woman walks through clapping people, walks out into the arena, onto the stage, takes xbox 360 out of here satchel, puts it on a platform presses the power button - it comes on (without a power cord).

Elijah: Theres more after the break

I was thinking - finally. Then to my suprise they started talkin about it in the break, telling you a load of crap, people talking in different languages with subtitles about xbox 360. They said the Xbox was designed with J-lo as an idea for the shape.

Then it goes back to the show, and to my dismay, they have snow patrol and the other band talkin about each other. Then snow patrol go on stage. Then
Elijah: and we leave you with the first band

and they play their song - and that was it over!

I was like, no friken way, I wasted my time on that - I hate MTV - and that just made things worse. That was dissappointing. At least you guys got to see some games, we got nothin!

Edit: I'd also like to point out that Microsoft likes to say alot of stuff that sounds fancy but really either isn't or means nothing.
And that gametrailer thing - what control do MS have over the games to ensure that every skatboard game is fully customisable, every driving game is fuly customisable???? OH GOD! MTV has spread out of the US?!? :shock:

Domination
05-14-2005, 12:21 AM
since xbox360 is made from touched up current technology, is it fair to assume that launch games will be taking advantage of about 60-80% of 360's total power... meaning that in the long run a a very inferior console... just my opinon of course

I asked myself the very same question when judging the shots for DOA4. Of course that was also before cpiasminc gave his explanation for the possible reason behind that, which does seem to be the case. We have to wait and see how true it is, I guess.

But anyway, back to what I was saying... I asked myself this very same question, and my answer was XNA. J. Allard, in an interview from early 04 around E3's time, claimed that these new software tools would allow developers to immediately start pushing the console's hardware from the very begining to where triple-A titles can be delivered much faster than before. Then he used the PS2 as an example by saying that GT3:A-Spec only used 50% of the consoles performance at launch and how developers had such a difficult time getting pass its learning curve and that he didn't want to repeat that. Then he went on saying with the new tools they were supplying developers, consoles will be pushed 90 to 100%. Cpiasminc had something different to say about it, however. But, IMO, if anything Allard said back then had any bearing on what had been previously touted of the Xbox 360's performance now, then that mark couldn't have been far from realistic. That's why I was so surprised.

Rallyracr420
05-14-2005, 12:33 AM
takes xbox 360 out of here satchel, puts it on a platform presses the power button - it comes on (without a power cord). haha...leave it to MS to think the whole world is as dumb as the people who regularly watch MTV.

One thing I am looking forward to with this generation of multicored consoles is the leap in game quality from first generation games to second and third generation games. Because multicored CPUs are so new, I imagine it'll take developers a lot of time and experience to get the full power out of the console. I think the evolution in game quality will be greater than ever before from the launch titles to titles that will be running on the same system 4 years from now.

mckmas8808
05-14-2005, 02:10 AM
I totally agree with you Rallyracr. The increase in overall gameplay and graphics will be at its greatest.

Handycrap101
05-14-2005, 04:13 AM
:!: Guys I think this thread should be stickied. :!:

Oh and tell me what you think of my new avatar. :D

Fooly Cooly
05-14-2005, 04:32 AM
Handycrap10 is that a pokemon card anyways

the show was total crap I was hoping for them to pass more pics of the xbox 360
the killers(like the song Mr Brightside) got more face time then the xbox which was suppose to be the main attraction
The xbox 360 design is ugly too

Handycrap101
05-14-2005, 04:34 AM
Yes it is a pokemon card.. but its solid snake. :shock:

Tenchi
05-14-2005, 07:10 AM
Ok guys post all of your thoughts on the revealing here... This includes anything that was mentioned during the premiere like games, hardware, software and such.
Although the threads are popular, you should not make threads as if you were compiling information or to tell anyone where to post what threads. We changed from the regular format from before to this because it was easeir and better.

Mordecai
05-14-2005, 07:19 AM
Oh come on he was just asking that people post there so that we would have them all consolidated and not have to search 20 threads. Seriously, it's not like he said "Post all information on the 360 unveiling here or you'll be BANNED"... Lighten up a little, jeez...

imported_The_One
05-14-2005, 04:11 PM
Xbox 360 Inside and Out article on Gamespot:
http://www.gamespot.com/features/6124293/p-2.html

A few key interest points:

...the white and black buttons on the now-familiar Xbox controller are gone and have been replaced with two additional shoulder buttons, making the overall design and form factor of the Xbox 360 controller quite similar to that of the PlayStation 2's Dual Shock 2 pad. This is exactly the kind of design PS3's controller should be. Two shoulder button with two triggers below it, but leave the analog sticks alone :P.

What we've ALWAYS wanted in a console:

Best of all, Microsoft has confirmed that you'll be able to turn off your Xbox 360 with the wireless controller. I hope PS3 comes with something like this... Saves me from having to get up from my couch and turning off the thing by hand :lol:.

Typical MicroCopycat anyone?

Microsoft plans to release a video camera device for the 360 that will allow for videoconferencing, as well as add a visual interaction EyeToy-like element to games.

DVD-ROM drive isn't even up to par (Aren't the newest drives 16x?):

The Xbox 360 has a 12x DVD-ROM drive that can read Xbox 360 DVDs and the usual optical media formats, such as DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, DVD-R/RW, DVD+R/RW, CD-DA, CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, WMA CD, MP3 CD, and JPEG Photo CD.

Water cooled baby 8) (I give credit to Microsoft for this):

The 165-million transistor chip will run at 3.2GHz, and it'll have a vacuum-sealed, water-cooled heat sink to handle heat dissipation.

The unified shader rumours were indeed true:

...the new ATI graphics chip will be based on a new unified shader model that processes vertex and pixels through the same multipurpose pipelines. Current PC video cards have pipelines dedicated to pixel processing or vertex processing.

I believe cpiasminc said with only 10MB of eDRAM, achieving 1080i would be pretty hard. Would this pose as a bottleneck?

The graphics chip will also have 10MB of superfast embedded DRAM, which is just large enough to fit in an HD resolution frame buffer with antialiasing.

Unified RAM... again:

The Xbox 360 will have 512MB of system memory, which is shared between the CPU and the GPU.

There's probably more, but check out the article to read some of the stuff I missed and/or didn't post here ;).

Domination
05-14-2005, 06:53 PM
Shoulder triggers sound nice, but then again, hearing something and experiencing it are two completely different things. I do find it useful for excceleration and braking, though.

Handycrap101
05-14-2005, 10:28 PM
The new controller is so close to the PS2 controller its not even funny... there are only 2 differences, the triggers, and the d-pad and analog stick have been swapped. all i want sony to do to its controller is add triggers and it would be the best controller ever.

Goki
05-14-2005, 10:48 PM
Yeah same here, although not like the xbox controller which is gun like trigger, but the kind of trigger in NGC controller, with a small "click" thing to it

Shahan14
05-14-2005, 11:13 PM
i dont think you guys are giving m$ enough credit, yes the mtv thing sucked, but the console is much better than b4...heres what i like most about it
-wireless controllers (PS3 shud do the same)
-HDTV compatible ( i have an HD TV!)
-changable faceplates (i kno its not important but customizing is cool!)
-Xbox live built in (smart move)
-much more powerful than the first xbox

Overall im not sure weather ill get Xbox 360 or PS3, but i think u guys are being too hard on Microsoft....btw those screens on ign and gamespot arent from the final xbox 360

Handycrap101
05-14-2005, 11:31 PM
Yes im aware thats not the final product.. there is still 6 months left untill it hits store.... well that what people are saying atleast.

Shahan14
05-14-2005, 11:36 PM
i wish the ps3 would just give out confirmed info so i can make an educated comparison!!!!!! DAMMIT SONY! WE WANNA KNO!

Handycrap101
05-14-2005, 11:41 PM
2 days from today we will know... unfortunatly those 2 days will take FOREVER....

Shahan14
05-14-2005, 11:46 PM
i cant wait till E3, im gonna watch it all on G4 tech tv

imported_The_One
05-15-2005, 12:10 AM
Xbox 360's Specs are finally unvieled (about an hour ago):
http://news.com.com/Xbox+specs+revealed/2100-1043_3-5705372.html?tag=nl

It's too long for me to post here, so check out that link. Oh, and too bad nobody bet on the rumoured specs a few days back, those were indeed the real thing 8).

Handycrap101
05-15-2005, 12:41 AM
... I still dont believe 1 TFLOP.

imported_The_One
05-15-2005, 12:46 AM
... I still dont believe 1 TFLOP. 2 words: Marketing Hype. Or, to put it a bit more crudely, 1 word and an acronym: Marketing BS.

Handycrap101
05-15-2005, 01:01 AM
Can you please explain to me the actual figure and why do YOU think its marketing hype.. my opinion is that the specs that have been revealed just dont make sense to have 1 TLOP, but why do you think its maketing BS and microsoft isn't telling us the truth.

imported_The_One
05-15-2005, 01:10 AM
Can you please explain to me the actual figure and why do YOU think its marketing hype.. my opinion is that the specs that have been revealed just dont make sense to have 1 TLOP, but why do you think its maketing BS and microsoft isn't telling us the truth. I'll make this short:
1) Three 3.2Ghz cores should clock up around 95-100GFLOp/s in theory.
2) Microsoft (or nVidia) did the same thing for Xbox. They claimed the GPU itself was capable of crunching out 75-80GFLOp/s
3) It's not only limited to Microsoft, even some of the stuff Sony says are marketing hype, so take everything with a grain of salt.

cpiasminc
05-15-2005, 03:25 AM
It's the magic of nVidia-flops. nVidia claims that their current GPUs do 500 GFLOPs, even though about 51 of those are actually accessible in the form of shader power. The rest is a sort of extrapolation of how much power is required to rasterize polygons, filter textures, apply antialiasing, perform all nature of per-pixel tests and do so at whatever peak rate they claim (and of course assuming all the highest-demanding settings). I'm not sure what sort of formula they dream up, but it's probably accurate and completely meaningless at the same time.

None of these operations that the GPU does to accumulate these magic FLOPs are actually done by any sort of floating point units. It's entirely handled by specialized hardware that is completely incapable of doing anything other than that one task... most all of which is leveraging some bitwise/analog tricks to achieve the appropriate effect.

Also note that the term "FLOPS" refers to a *per second* measurement. So one of the things a GPU manufacturer can do to really inflate their numbers is to try and see how much rasterization power is used up for a frame that takes 1 full second to render. Which as you can probably imagine, amounts to a hell of a lot of polygons and pixels. A fairly cheap trick, but all's fair in marketing & politics.

Of the TFLOP of system performance they claim, I would expect less than 190 GFLOPs of computing power that is under anybody's control for CPU + GPU put together.

julps31
05-15-2005, 03:55 AM
I hate when companys bloat there numbers like that. When I heard that the 360 had those huge numbers I new they hadn't got it by the processor and GPU. Its not that easy. Oh well at least we no we can basically trust PS3 numbers if Nvidia doesn't use there special formula and they use the actual specs. I don't want to have an inflated view of what the consoles actual capable of.

pc999
05-15-2005, 10:57 AM
See some info about the MS games

Kameo-
more than 2,000 creatures on-screen, each driven by its own individual AI :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

and much more

http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3140498&did=1

Shahan14
05-15-2005, 01:10 PM
when u really think about it, bill gates and microsoft have sooooooooo much money they can do what ever they want with the 360...i beleive em when they say 1 TFLOP, why would they lie on purpose? if so, ppl would eventually find out that its not 1 TFLOP and 360 wouldnt get any sales....

cpiasminc
05-15-2005, 02:07 PM
when u really think about it, bill gates and microsoft have sooooooooo much money they can do what ever they want with the 360...i beleive em when they say 1 TFLOP, why would they lie on purpose? if so, ppl would eventually find out that its not 1 TFLOP and 360 wouldnt get any sales....
I doubt it would affect sales. Go around to your average gamer and see if they know what GFLOPS and TFLOPS are. I'm sure the best result you might get if you asked about "floating point" would be a reference to Professor Frink's submerged computer on the Simpsons. They'd rather just see some eye-popping graphics, ear-bleeding sound, and silky smooth gameplay and just blame developers blindly for their laziness if they don't get it all.

Seriously, though, the 1 TFLOP is not a boldfaced lie per se -- it's misleading is what it is. And there's no limit to how much Microsoft or any other company on the planet would be all too glad to mislead the consumer.

FerrianX
05-15-2005, 08:32 PM
Of the TFLOP of system performance they claim, I would expect less than 190 GFLOPs of computing power that is under anybody's control for CPU + GPU put together.

With Cell at 256GFLOPs how much of that do you believe to be real computing power???

If it is all real computing power then I wonder what it will be like when combined with the nVidia GPU...

Rallyracr420
05-15-2005, 08:54 PM
Sony should figure out what MS uses to compute those numbers and then run that same logic on the PS3 so ppl have something to compare the X360 to.

BTW, when are all these press conferences supposed to take place?

cpiasminc
05-16-2005, 02:35 AM
With Cell at 256GFLOPs how much of that do you believe to be real computing power???
CELL is just the CPU. All of its power is accesible. How efficiently it will be used is another matter, but the same problem applies to any system. The 256 GFLOPs just comes from the sum of all its computational execution resources. In the same way that people get the 96/115.2 GFLOPS figure for 360's CPU. I'm not sure I buy the 115.2 as it assumes that the SMT would demand an extra FMADD pipe.

Now of course, I expect Sony to do something similar to inflate its "total system" FLOPS figures just to keep in line with the attitudes of the customer base. Note that the little ad didn't say "TFLOP", it said "trillion floating point operations..." The difference being from a marketing standpoint that the typical gamer doesn't know or give a damn what a floating point op is, they just get blown away by the staggering number that is "1 trillion."

Fazares
06-12-2005, 08:15 AM
With Cell at 256GFLOPs how much of that do you believe to be real computing power???
CELL is just the CPU. All of its power is accesible. How efficiently it will be used is another matter, but the same problem applies to any system. The 256 GFLOPs just comes from the sum of all its computational execution resources. In the same way that people get the 96/115.2 GFLOPS figure for 360's CPU. I'm not sure I buy the 115.2 as it assumes that the SMT would demand an extra FMADD pipe.

Now of course, I expect Sony to do something similar to inflate its "total system" FLOPS figures just to keep in line with the attitudes of the customer base. Note that the little ad didn't say "TFLOP", it said "trillion floating point operations..." The difference being from a marketing standpoint that the typical gamer doesn't know or give a damn what a floating point op is, they just get blown away by the staggering number that is "1 trillion."
really,cpiasminc...your reasoning too much...no reason to do all of those backflips to give numbers that no average joe care a lot...and to lie toward programmers and other industry peoples...and gpu specialized hardware still does math ops that you can translate to gflops...you are too much on the software side of the things... :lol:

eva2112
06-12-2005, 06:48 PM
really,cpiasminc...your reasoning too much...no reason to do all of those backflips to give numbers that no average joe care a lot...and to lie toward programmers and other industry peoples...and gpu specialized hardware still does math ops that you can translate to gflops...you are too much on the software side of the things... :lol:
Wow, after been a long time lurker I will have to be banned on my first post. Simply because I got tired of all your nonsense.


1.) Did you ask Cpiasminc permission to post his opinion in the other forum?
*points to the "Xbox360 claims 1gflop" topic*

2.) The average Joe in this case is obviously you. I can plainly see that this is another case of "There is no truth, you just have to find the one that suits you better" and that you really don't understand a thing about hardware and is always following the opinion that suits you better.

3.) There are a lof of non joes here that want to discuss things seriously.

4.) I will try to put this in a easy way for you to understand: Specialized hardware in this case means Specialized circuitry, meaning that we're taking a "shortcut". Do we have math operations that can translate into Gflops? Of course, that is where the ~200Gflops figure comes from.

What does this mean? That your pal is wrong and Cpiasminc is right. Or in a twisted way they both said the same thing...:P. The Gpu is not doing 2Tflops of math operations in peak, it's doing the equivalent of it if you haven't take all the shortcuts.

Think of this way, a normal CPU traveling in the fancy lands of Graphical World would have to take its car and travel on road to reach the city of Beautiful Graphics. A Gpu would just take its airplane and fly there, it doesn't need to bother with all the holes in the road, all the curves, stop to fuel, etc.. Ir reachs the city way faster but did it did all the work a normal CPU would need? A CPU would need its super 2TFlops of power to reach the city at the same time while the Gpu is flying slowly over the fancy lands and whistling to itself.

Case in point: it's not a virtual performance, you're seeing the equivalent of a 1.8Tflops performance in your screen but the GPU is not using 1.8Tflops of power to make it. Don't believe it? Make the calculations of memory needed for this amount of operations.

5.) No, I don't give my authorization for you to post elsewhere and form twisted ideas about it.

6.) No, I'm not too much on the software side of things, I'm in the hardware branch of my course.

Fazares
06-13-2005, 12:35 PM
really,cpiasminc...your reasoning too much...no reason to do all of those backflips to give numbers that no average joe care a lot...and to lie toward programmers and other industry peoples...and gpu specialized hardware still does math ops that you can translate to gflops...you are too much on the software side of the things... :lol:
Wow, after been a long time lurker I will have to be banned on my first post. Simply because I got tired of all your nonsense.


1.) Did you ask Cpiasminc permission to post his opinion in the other forum?
*points to the "Xbox360 claims 1gflop" topic*

2.) The average Joe in this case is obviously you. I can plainly see that this is another case of "There is no truth, you just have to find the one that suits you better" and that you really don't understand a thing about hardware and is always following the opinion that suits you better.3.) There are a lof of non joes here that want to discuss things seriously.

4.) I will try to put this in a easy way for you to understand: Specialized hardware in this case means Specialized circuitry, meaning that we're taking a "shortcut". Do we have math operations that can translate into Gflops? Of course, that is where the ~200Gflops figure comes from.

What does this mean? That your pal is wrong and Cpiasminc is right. Or in a twisted way they both said the same thing...:P. The Gpu is not doing 2Tflops of math operations in peak, it's doing the equivalent of it if you haven't take all the shortcuts.

Think of this way, a normal CPU traveling in the fancy lands of Graphical World would have to take its car and travel on road to reach the city of Beautiful Graphics. A Gpu would just take its airplane and fly there, it doesn't need to bother with all the holes in the road, all the curves, stop to fuel, etc.. Ir reachs the city way faster but did it did all the work a normal CPU would need? A CPU would need its super 2TFlops of power to reach the city at the same time while the Gpu is flying slowly over the fancy lands and whistling to itself.

Case in point: it's not a virtual performance, you're seeing the equivalent of a 1.8Tflops performance in your screen but the GPU is not using 1.8Tflops of power to make it. Don't believe it? Make the calculations of memory needed for this amount of operations.

5.) No, I don't give my authorization for you to post elsewhere and form twisted ideas about it.

6.) No, I'm not too much on the software side of things, I'm in the hardware branch of my course.
your funny... :lol:
anyway i dont want the authorization to post your crazy ideas elsewhere...do you want the authorization for mine....do you want an autograph... :?:
maybe i could buy your in the hardware branch of your course....maybe... :lol:
and,of course yours is an opinion aswell... :lol:
see ya mit engineer... :wink:

cpiasminc
06-14-2005, 02:51 PM
really,cpiasminc...your reasoning too much...
There's no such thing as reasoning too much. Especially not in my line of work.

xbdestroya
06-14-2005, 03:57 PM
Eva2112: Welcome to the forum 8)

Fazares
06-14-2005, 08:23 PM
really,cpiasminc...your reasoning too much...
There's no such thing as reasoning too much. Especially not in my line of work.
one day you will take a break...mate and your mind will thank you for that..

imported_Amadeus
06-14-2005, 09:49 PM
What, so you want him to be ignorant, and biased a little? :P I kid.

cpiasminc
06-15-2005, 05:15 PM
one day you will take a break...mate and your mind will thank you for that..
Bah... There's plenty of time to relax when you're dead. If it wasn't hard, it wouldn't be work, as far as I'm concerned. Taking a break because "it requires too much thinking" is a luxury afforded only to the weak.

Fazares
06-16-2005, 02:38 PM
one day you will take a break...mate and your mind will thank you for that..
Bah... There's plenty of time to relax when you're dead. If it wasn't hard, it wouldn't be work, as far as I'm concerned. Taking a break because "it requires too much thinking" is a luxury afforded only to the weak.
or the savy that dont want to get mad...or dead... :lol:
amedeus...i like to hear cpiasminc opinions...only i dont mean those as real facts, 100 per cent of the time, just like most of you does... even when i agree with him :wink:

cpiasminc
06-16-2005, 04:28 PM
or the savy that dont want to get mad...or dead...
You make that sound as if it's a bad thing. Dying is easy... Living, on the other hand, is the hard thing. Anyone who goes mad because of thinking too much was simply too weak to handle that. Death is an inifinitely long vacation. I think an infinite amount of time is more than enough.

How did this suddenly become a philosophical thread?

Fazares
06-16-2005, 04:33 PM
or the savy that dont want to get mad...or dead...
You make that sound as if it's a bad thing. Dying is easy... Living, on the other hand, is the hard thing. Anyone who goes mad because of thinking too much was simply too weak to handle that. Death is an inifinitely long vacation. I think an infinite amount of time is more than enough.

How did this suddenly become a philosophical thread?
:?:
if you really think dead isnt bad...then why dont you kill yourself :lol:
its a vacation...you know :?

cpiasminc
06-16-2005, 06:51 PM
if you really think dead isnt bad...then why dont you kill yourself :lol:
its a vacation...you know :?
Did you miss the part about taking a break being a luxury afforded only to the weak? Killing oneself is something people do because they're weak and afraid of life. I'm still lost as to why we're even talking about this.

In any case, this all came down from the whole "thinking too much" argument. If you want to rely on faith in all the claims, then that's fine for you. Faith is something I'll never rely on. It will burn you every time. I'd rather think about these things for myself.

Fazares
06-16-2005, 06:58 PM
if you really think dead isnt bad...then why dont you kill yourself :lol:
its a vacation...you know :?
Did you miss the part about taking a break being a luxury afforded only to the weak? Killing oneself is something people do because they're weak and afraid of life. I'm still lost as to why we're even talking about this.

In any case, this all came down from the whole "thinking too much" argument. If you want to rely on faith in all the claims, then that's fine for you. Faith is something I'll never rely on. It will burn you every time. I'd rather think about these things for myself.
you said dead isnt bad...the opposite is good...though you had a good opinion...cyander one look as good as yours,cpiasminc.
have you ever been burnt by faith,tell me... :?: just curious...

cpiasminc
06-16-2005, 08:22 PM
you said dead isnt bad...the opposite is good...
If everything were in black and white, sure.


have you ever been burnt by faith,tell me...
Not particularly. It's really just me growing highly jaded over the years. For me, the glass is neither half full nor half-empty. It's shattered and hundreds of shards have embedded into your flesh. Pessimism shades how I think.

Fazares
06-16-2005, 08:51 PM
you said dead isnt bad...the opposite is good...
If everything were in black and white, sure.


have you ever been burnt by faith,tell me...
Not particularly. It's really just me growing highly jaded over the years. For me, the glass is neither half full nor half-empty. It's shattered and hundreds of shards have embedded into your flesh. Pessimism shades how I think.
pessimism and eddie murphy law, i have understood your toughts :roll: ...what did you mean for jaded... :?:

Handycrap101
06-17-2005, 12:03 AM
... :?: Is it me or is this thread going WAY off topic :?:

Fats
06-17-2005, 10:48 AM
Is it just me or does Fazares have a tendency to turn most topics into complete irrelevant nonsence?

So anyway, would someone like to get this conversation back on topic?

imported_Tacitblue
06-17-2005, 12:11 PM
I'll try. Granted that it has some nice bandwidth saving features in the graphics subsystem, won't it still have some issues because of the shared memory pool and how they route memory to the CPU through the Xenon-Xenos pipeline? The GPU is the main memory controller, you'll have IO needs to and from the hard drive and DVD, graphic write needs from CPU to GPU, memory reads and writes by both Xenon and Xenos, those savings from the edram are going to disappear if they're not careful.

cpiasminc
06-17-2005, 04:18 PM
Shared memory pool can definitely be a problem when the GPU and CPU are contending for memory accesses. Especially the way they describe Xenos as being especially effective so long as you keep flooding it with tasks to do. If that's the case, the GPU is going to hog the bulk of your memory traffic even if it doesn't cry out for bandwidth.

The downside of GDDR-3 is going to be that latency -- not so important to the GPU, but the CPU... Having to go through the GPU puts the CPU farther away from memory. Possibly a few hundred cycles away. OOOE or in-order can't do anything to hide a stall like that.

Rukawa
06-18-2005, 03:03 AM
i heard that today latency cost about 1000 cycles today and the situation even worse on SMP chip
I think each core having 512 KB is better than unified 1 MB L2 cache running


I just curious about XNA studios , can we get new games faster than non XNA,
MS hyping how easy making games with XNA (port Xbox 1 game to 360 with just 2 week ). But i doubt MS will 100% lie

cpiasminc
06-18-2005, 02:34 PM
i heard that today latency cost about 1000 cycles today and the situation even worse on SMP chip
Depends on the system architecture. Even with GDDR-3, CELL's latencies would be lower simply because it has a memory controller of its own, separate from that of the GPU, making it closer to its RAM pool (it also has to be NUMA for that very reason).


I just curious about XNA studios , can we get new games faster than non XNA, MS hyping how easy making games with XNA (port Xbox 1 game to 360 with just 2 week ). But i doubt MS will 100% lie
So far, what they claim will be XNA Studio doesn't really exist. Right now, it's just a wash of Xbox tools and PC tools all being usable on 360. And I seriously don't see how Xbox games will get ported to 360 any faster just because of those. For the most part, an Xbox game won't contain very much assembler code at all (profile-sensitive spots will pretty much be it).

The only things you'll really have to do would be 1 : make the codebase 64-bit clean, for which XNA is pretty meaningless and 2: replace all 8-bit textures with 32/24-bit since 360 doesn't support 8-bit (again XNA being meaningless for that).

I guess the thing that I keep wondering about with XNA is that all the original statements were about tech development going faster and leaving more time for game and content work. It just seems to me that the focus is all wrong. In spite of all the time spent on tech development, the teams that work on it are always small, and so costs are not that high (probably around 10% of total). If you can't bring down costs significantly, you're not going to see that many games come out quickly or from several studios -- and the smaller studios will have to sell out to larger ones in order to stay afloat and shoulder the expenses.

Rukawa
06-19-2005, 12:53 AM
Seems everybody dont know that X360 CPU is likely 32 bit, i read an interview with J Allard by Hiroshige Goto stated that they remove all the double precision ALU
What i want know is it DP Integer ALU also removed, it seems yes

imported_The_One
06-19-2005, 05:15 AM
Seems everybody dont know that X360 CPU is likely 32 bit, i read an interview with J Allard by Hiroshige Goto stated that they remove all the double precision ALU
What i want know is it DP Integer ALU also removed, it seems yes Double precision simply refers to the precision of the float point calculations, it doesn't mean that the CPU will be 32 bit, as a matter of a fact, it'll most likely be 64 bit just like the CELL and other PPC cores.

Rukawa
06-19-2005, 05:48 AM
I always think that 64 bit integer is useless for game since console dont have memory more than 4 GB yet, so MS decided to cut it. That my logic
And i noticed double precision only used for floating point .
BTW Thanks The_One

cpiasminc
06-19-2005, 03:10 PM
If it were to actually gain you something by leaving it out, then they would. The thing is that fast integer ALUs are not a very difficult problem. An undergrad who's had a single semester of CPU architecture courses could probably easily come up with a 64-bit ALU design that can handily clock up to 4-5 GHz on current process tech. Of course, the integer ALU speed is not the determinant of a whole CPU, anyway, and the number of transistors needed is very little. And they'd be located somewhere in the middle of the die, anyway so it wouldn't save die space -- e.g. take Ohio out of the US; Are Canada and Mexico any closer now?

I think you'd probably have to get up to a 512-bit integer ALU before the complexity is high enough that 3 GHz clock speed is problematic.

The gains are minor, all right --- at best encryption/decryption and maybe audio/video decoding will be a little faster for having 64-bit. But compared to the things they DID have to drop in order to reduce die size and increase clock scaling (like OOOE), the losses are virtually nil.

Fazares
06-30-2005, 08:10 PM
If it were to actually gain you something by leaving it out, then they would. The thing is that fast integer ALUs are not a very difficult problem. An undergrad who's had a single semester of CPU architecture courses could probably easily come up with a 64-bit ALU design that can handily clock up to 4-5 GHz on current process tech. Of course, the integer ALU speed is not the determinant of a whole CPU, anyway, and the number of transistors needed is very little. And they'd be located somewhere in the middle of the die, anyway so it wouldn't save die space -- e.g. take Ohio out of the US; Are Canada and Mexico any closer now?

I think you'd probably have to get up to a 512-bit integer ALU before the complexity is high enough that 3 GHz clock speed is problematic.

The gains are minor, all right --- at best encryption/decryption and maybe audio/video decoding will be a little faster for having 64-bit. But compared to the things they DID have to drop in order to reduce die size and increase clock scaling (like OOOE), the losses are virtually nil.
wtf :lol:

Z
07-01-2005, 12:22 AM
the X2’s power button will ‘turn’ depending on the position of the console- vertical/ horizontal. I want to know if it will ‘turn’ automatically or manually. It will be great if it was the first.

cpiasminc
07-01-2005, 01:04 AM
wtf :lol:
Oh, boy... I see he's back. I know I'm going to regret this, but... mind explaining? "wtf" and a laughing smiley doesn't really say much.


the X2’s power button will ‘turn’ depending on the position of the console- vertical/ horizontal. I want to know if it will ‘turn’ automatically or manually. It will be great if it was the first.
I'm fairly sure they said it would be automatic. You don't really need a gyrosensor for that unless they felt it necessary for the feature to work even while the unit if hanging from a thread or if it's supposed to turn no matter what the angle is. Either way, you can get by with a sort of mechanical solution like a floating mount or even a weighted toggle switch or compass toggle if you were only concerned with vertical/horizontal.

Rukawa
07-02-2005, 02:00 AM
cpiasminc
I really want know if 360 developer having this problem
Memory latency quite high , not to mention there no on die memory controller on CPU . To make even worse the memory is shared with Xenos which is very hungry and the CPU is SMP design.
Remember Xenon document, the goal of design is eliminate bottleneck
Xbox bottleneck is bus bandwidth. But 360 is also have th same problem

Solution? hit the metal with ASM
Wonder why MS saying their console is very easy to develop

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/01/news_6128504.html
Interesting comment from Itagaki

Quote:
When asked about the console's triple-core IBM PowerPC processor design, Itagaki called it a "buffed-up Sega Saturn," as the old console was also multi-processor, coming with two, 32-bit CPUs. He said that a single-CPU machine is easier for programming, but multi-core structures have become the recent trend.

"The Xbox 360 is said to be a machine that's easy to develop for, but that's because it has a good line-up of middleware and infrastructure. So it should be easy to create something that's up to a certain level [of quality]. But if you try to take advantage of the Xbox 360’s full hardware specs, you'll find out about the difficulty in programming for a multi-core machine," said Itagaki.

Raijin
07-02-2005, 03:03 AM
It seems Itagaki is not pleased with the DVD format choice...

Mitri
07-02-2005, 03:59 AM
i really don't believe anyone is happy with the DVD format. the consumers nor MS wanted DVD again because it isn't enough for nex-gen. everyone knows that. but it is all that MS can do unless they want to lose a couple hundred a console. even though they have money to do that they are working on a budget this time around. maybe one day there will be a upgrade.

cpiasminc
07-02-2005, 05:52 AM
I really want know if 360 developer having this problem
Memory latency quite high , not to mention there no on die memory controller on CPU . To make even worse the memory is shared with Xenos which is very hungry and the CPU is SMP design.
Absolutely. The CPU is not just facing a high latency memory made specifically for streaming (and really, SMP would be friendlier with memory that gave fast random-access), but it's also far away from that memory, and has to share it with a streaming device, and you've got a really small L2 cache for having 3 processors. It'll be a while before people really get the hang of all the quirks.

Well, MS still stands by the idea that you won't really need to look in the direction of raw ASM... they certainly expose vector datatypes and VMX intrinsics to the compiler for use anywhere in code. I suppose having a nice big register file doesn't hurt if you're going to do something like that. For all intensive purposes, x86's register file is utterly worthless. You may as well not have any GPRs. But then that's why it's needs every one of those latency-protecting measures when accessing memory and cache. Xenon has none of that.

Handycrap101
11-01-2005, 10:53 PM
BUMP

Sendok
11-01-2005, 11:06 PM
you need to be shot, atleast post some info or an opinion