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AC!D
04-14-2011, 08:06 PM
Multiple Sources Confirm New Nintendo HD Console (http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2011/04/14/new-nintendo-console-at-e3.aspx)


Gamers have been waiting years for Nintendo to finally release its Wii successor, and Game Informer has heard from multiple sources that the company will unveil it at E3 this summer if not sooner.

We have confirmed with multiple sources that this new home system is capable of running games at HD resolutions. There are conflicting reports, however, as to whether its graphics will be comparable to those on the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 – meaning it could surpass or fall short of those systems. Either way it will offer competitive specifications. Moving to HD should greatly help Nintendo and its new console in getting more multi-platform triple-A titles like Portal 2 or Mortal Kombat. This, in turn, will strengthen Nintendo's historically poor relationship with third-party publishers/developers.

In fact, Nintendo is already showing publishers the system in an effort to get them interested and allow them plenty of time to start developing titles in anticipation of the system's reported late 2012 launch. This advance support marks a change from when the Wii launched. At that time, several Western publishers were outright surprised by the announcement, and it affected the software support for the platform.

Nintendo president Satoru Iwata himself acknowledged that it needs to do a better job with its publishing partners at a 3DS press conference in the fall of 2010. "We need to decrease the concern that only Nintendo software can sell well on Nintendo platforms and third-party software cannot sell in the same volume. We feel a need to have closer ties with our third-party developers from the beginning."

"Nintendo is doing this one right," said an anonymous source. "[It's] not a gimmick like the Wii." What else, beyond graphics, this may imply about the system is unknown. What kind of controls the system will support (we imagine a need for both classic analog configurations and motion controllers) or what level of software and infrastructure Nintendo will provide for online gaming is also unknown. However, it's a positive sign that the system might be more than just an HD Wii.

We've heard about an HD Wii for some time now, and the time is perfect – almost necessary – for Nintendo to jump start itself with this new system. The company has been feeling the bite since Wii sales have declined from previous years, and this week's news that Nintendo could be dropping the price of the Wii on May 15 could be a precursor to this announcement and an attempt to move as many Wii units as possible out of the retail channel before the new system hits.

We do not have confirmation if this new system will be backward compatible with the Wii or if it will even carry the Wii branding as has often been rumored. It is our understanding that Nintendo is trying to embrace the western gamer and will likely launch a new brand with this console. Around the office we have dubbed the system Nintendo HD. However, this information at this point is conjecture.

We contacted a Nintendo representative regarding this information, and they would only say that "Nintendo does not comment on rumors or speculation."

Either way, it should be an exciting E3 for Nintendo and gamers alike.

It's about time!!! :)

Viper
04-14-2011, 08:15 PM
I still see it as being like the Wii announcement at E3 2004. Sure they spoke of it to some degree but it wasn't until late 2006 the console was launched.

Any details offered at E3 this year will likely be slight with a 2013 launch.

I could be wrong but I see just as much evidence that a new console as evidence that it's still a ways away.

GTAce
04-14-2011, 08:24 PM
Gamers have been waiting years for Nintendo to finally release its Wii successor,
Wat?

Viper
04-14-2011, 08:27 PM
Wat?
Just another reason why I don't like Game Informer.

Segitz
04-14-2011, 08:40 PM
It's rather people waited for a GC successor... because the Wii is just "two GCs duct taped together"... I know this is trolling, yet me, as a bit of a graphics whore cannot play Wii games anymore, mainly because of their looks.

But... announcing/releasing a new console when they already have a new one just released would be a bit backwards.

frosty
04-14-2011, 09:29 PM
Wii is showing it's age. It's time for a successor. Wii was never meant to go for long, which is why they put yesterday's tech in it.

Crazybone126
04-14-2011, 09:43 PM
Nintendo usually has 5 year cycles, and 2011 marks that fifth year. I've actually been speaking about a new Nintendo console announcement coming soon lately. Some disagreed, but I always just felt it was coming.

I also think a new Microsoft console is coming rather soon as well. 2011 is a pretty boring year for the 360. The only game coming is Gears of War 3. Seems Microsoft is slowing down to gear up.

AC!D
04-14-2011, 09:49 PM
Just another reason why I don't like Game Informer.

Maybe not years but for at least two maybe three yes. Just read the comments for the article. Clearly im not the only one thats felt this way for some time. Get your Wii defences down and hell lets celebrate together. God surely you want a more powerful Wii?

Viper
04-14-2011, 10:10 PM
Oh, I don't mind a new one coming. That's not a defense mechanism. My points are based on more practical measures. I tend to post on a balance of consumer interest and corporate interest. Most people ignore the latter.

Consider this...consumer demand for the Wii is down but even at its lowest point here it sells comparable to the competition and has had only 1 frikkin price cut the whole time. From a corporate standpoint, this thing is still in great shape. And it's a corporate standpoint that a successor will be derived from.

SadPanda
04-14-2011, 10:21 PM
Nintendo likes making money from the start. Assuming they would be using BluRay wouldn't that one feature alone still be a bit costly never mind the horsepower to top the 360 and PS3?

masteratt
04-14-2011, 10:33 PM
Too soon for my liking but who is to say they can't launch this system with the same status as DSi. Keep the Wii crowd going and release a new Wii with an upgraded couple things.
I know "omg but HD is too big of an upgrade", in Wii's market, I really don't think it is.

frosty
04-14-2011, 10:49 PM
Assuming they would be using BluRay wouldn't that one feature alone still be a bit costly never mind the horsepower to top the 360 and PS3?

Back in the day, when PS3 launched, the BD drive in it was something to the tune of $200. These days, you can buy a 10x blu-ray BURNER for $80-90, so the drives have got to be dirt cheap by now. As for the other hardware needed to power HD graphics, if they built a console today with the same specs as PS3, it would cost them just under $300 per system (and they'd likely be able to put in hardware that outperformed the PS3). Nintendo has all the profit from Wii they need to launch at break even, so they could still hit the market at $300 (and probably be able to afford enough RAM to handle 1080p 3D as well). The system would likely outperform the PS3 in many regards by using that budget (PS3 uses a lot of specialized parts, like the Cell processor, which are going to cost a lot more than what Ninty would pay if they assembled their own HD console today).

As long as they were only trying to compete with the HD consoles, they could build a much better HD console than even the PS3 for cheap. Of course, "next gen", once PS3 and 360's successors are out, that console would be the weaker of the bunch, but that fits in with the same strategy Ninty successfully used with the Wii.

frosty
04-15-2011, 01:11 AM
Even more Wii talk, including a tease from the official E3 twitter. I think this very well could be real folks, and if it's anywhere near what they claim, I'll be getting one.


Game Informer’s news post regarding the next Nintendo console has sparked a ton of buzz. But the article contained a number of uncertainties, such as the system’s graphical capabilities. While everything is still unconfirmed, many additional articles around the web indicate that the power of “Wii HD” (let’s just call it that for now) will indeed surpass the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360:

“Furthermore, we’ve heard that the machine will be more powerful than current-gen systems, meaning Nintendo, currently backing a Wii that is weaker in horsepower than the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3, will be showing a new console that is more powerful than those current competitors.” – Kotaku article

“Our sources have said the the console is significantly more powerful than the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360, and that Nintendo’s intent is to recapture the hardcore market.” – IGN article

IGN’s article contains other interesting nuggets. Apparently the company will distribute a press release this month – confirming the rumors – and will fully unveil the console in June. IGN also notes that the console will be backwards compatible with the Wii and will support 1080p resolutions.

Moving on, there is quite an interesting article on 01Net. The site’s source leaked NGP specs prior to the handheld’s reveal, which gives the publication some credibility. Like IGN and Kotaku, 01Net has also discussed the Wii HD’s power, noting that it is on par with the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360. Even more interesting, however, is that the system will feature a “very original” controller – and it doesn’t sound like it will be similar to the Wii remote or Kinect. 01Net additionally believes an announcement will come at E3.

Last but not least, the E3 Twitter account has posted a very interesting message on their Twitter account. Make of it what you will…

“Could it be? Tune in June 7th and see…. http://fb.me/G77gvduy”

I doubt that they truly know what Nintendo has in store… but you never know!

I just hope they don't gimp it on media features. This needs to be an all in one box just like PS3 is. If it does all my PS3 does but better, I'll be buying one day one. I think Ninty is out to win the "best e3 conference" award 2 years in a row. This will likely force the hands of the other 2 to announce their hardware next E3 (or possibly even TGS?) as well.

It'll be good to see Ninty become a true competitor in the hardcore gaming market again. I welcome it with open arms.

Viper
04-15-2011, 01:12 AM
Nintendo likes making money from the start. Assuming they would be using BluRay wouldn't that one feature alone still be a bit costly never mind the horsepower to top the 360 and PS3?

I'm expecting them to use either flash memory cards (like the 3DS) or that InPhase holographic storage that they've been investing in for several years.

The 3DS cards have capacity between 2 GB and 8 GB. I wouldn't be surprised that Nintendo kept that route and went from 8 GB to 32 GB. Prices for 32 GB SDHC cards right now go for $40. With bulk rate pricing, I'm sure Nintendo can get that down much lower....and they'll naturally get lower as time goes on anyway. And flash gives the benefits of no moving parts, no worries about disc scratching and much faster data rates.

InPhase went out of business in Feb 2010 but Nintendo co-owns the patent and can still run with it. Capacity isn't fixed but was to start at 100 GB. Access speeds are very fast and because it uses a parallel read and write system, reads and writes are insanely fast. It's also rewritable with no wear and has a life span of centuries instead of years for standard optical media. The problem is it's sounds too damn good to be true and we'll likely never see it or at least not for decades.


As for other specs, you can beat the PS3 with an off the shelf $35 GPU right now. Directly from the vendor is probably $25.
CPU could be a down clocked Power6 or Power7 chip from IBM. Likely Power6 as Power7 just came out last year. Will be 4 cores minimum being the architecture starts there.
RAM won't be a problem as it's insanely cheap right now. 4 GB would be a reasonable guess.
In keeping with the flash memory and reduction of moving parts, I'd guess they may use a small SDD for mass storage.

The 2 big factors in gaining 3rd party support are this:

1. Online infrastructure must be good. They seem to have learned this with the 3DS (though final details are waiting for the big May firmware update to see how much they learned) so let's hope that carries over to the home console.

2. Direct3D and programmable. Games are going to the iOS that have no business even being there simply because it support programmable shaders. 3rd parties will port games to N6 (Nintendo's 6th home console...I refuse to call it Wii 2) or even lead on it if it makes this one single change in their GPU strategy.

Dralor
04-15-2011, 01:12 AM
Ugh I hope the HD screen in the controller isn't true that sounds downright terrible.

frosty
04-15-2011, 01:27 AM
It seems like that would add a lot of unnecessary cost to the console if they do the HD screen in the controller, but at the same time it would be damn cool to be able to do things separate from the main game screen that others in the room cannot see.

That was one advantage to LCD shutter glasses that sony was talking about exploiting, instead of alternating left eye/right eye, it would alternate player 1, player 2, etc... up to 4 players. This would give nintendo a way of combating that if Sony were to implement it, and it wouldn't require a 3DTV.

I think making the screens "HD" would be a stupid thing to do though. It would only require a display for showing basic information like the play you want to select in Madden.

masteratt
04-15-2011, 01:31 AM
Ugh I hope the HD screen in the controller isn't true that sounds downright terrible.
I was actually talking of bringing that back in a rambling I was having a few months back, calling for an improved version of Dreamcast controller thing. So I welcome it personally. Has great opportunity add immersion and save menu switching / HUD space in game.

I agree with Frosty that Wii2 will most definitely steal the show.
I didn't mind Nintendo having the best E3 last year, and I wouldn't mind them having it this year. Should be a fun watch.

frosty
04-15-2011, 01:33 AM
As for specs, I'd expect this:

1080p standard resolution on ALL games.

3D in 1080p standard for ALL games.

MSAA, etc. for ALL games, even at 1080p.

blu-ray (for movie playback, it makes the most sense and is cheaper than SD cards. plus it's the industry standard for both 2D and 3D HD movies)

802.11n standard, maybe even something new.

new controller that puts all out there to shame both in the standard and motion control arenas.

at least 4GB of RAM

6 core CPU (to beat PS3, it's gonna need it)

GPU that is more powerful than RSX (probably by a good bit, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the CPU able to lend a hand as well like with PS3)

some very fast bandwidth connecting all that together

Solid state HDD, cloud storage/saves as well

If ninty were smart:

cross game chat, invites, join from friends list, no fucking 80 number long "Friend codes", and some sort of pay online service like PS+.

Yay! next gen is coming... now the speculation starts. It's starting to feel like 2004/2005 all over again!

One thing that would make the screen on the controllers work... if it was a 3D screen like that on the 3DS. Then anyone that bought it, regardless of whether or not they have a 3DTV, would be able to enjoy it in 3D.

Viper
04-15-2011, 01:33 AM
Sega did that with the Dreamcast and though it wasn't well supported, it was a neat feature. LCD screens today are vastly superior to the one Sega used and certainly would not need to be in HD. In fact, the smallest HD screen is 7". That's way too massive for a controller and as you noted, Frosty, an expense that doesn't make sense.

frosty
04-15-2011, 01:35 AM
But, as I said, if they made it 3D, it would give the advantage of having 3D out of the box with no TV required (if you had a 3DTV, you could enjoy 3D full screen on the main TV, but if not just look at the controller)

LaLiLuLeLo
04-15-2011, 01:43 AM
Oh, I don't mind a new one coming. That's not a defense mechanism. My points are based on more practical measures. I tend to post on a balance of consumer interest and corporate interest. Most people ignore the latter.

Consider this...consumer demand for the Wii is down but even at its lowest point here it sells comparable to the competition and has had only 1 frikkin price cut the whole time. From a corporate standpoint, this thing is still in great shape. And it's a corporate standpoint that a successor will be derived from.

Right.^^ Wii sales are down, but that's only because 90% of the people who wanted one have one by now. It sold at an astronomical rate, but that rate isn't sustainable. Sales are down, but they're still top of the pile.

Viper
04-15-2011, 01:44 AM
@Frosty.
I could see maybe a 3D screen peripheral attachment. That way you can buy it separately and enjoy the 3D but if you already have a 3DTV or don't care for the feature, it's not a price burden from the on set. AND it doesn't bulk up the controller.

frosty
04-15-2011, 01:53 AM
Yeah, an accessory would be the wiser route to take.

Segitz
04-15-2011, 07:24 AM
As for specs, I'd expect this:

1080p standard resolution on ALL games.

3D in 1080p standard for ALL games.

MSAA, etc. for ALL games, even at 1080p.

blu-ray (for movie playback, it makes the most sense and is cheaper than SD cards. plus it's the industry standard for both 2D and 3D HD movies)

802.11n standard, maybe even something new.

new controller that puts all out there to shame both in the standard and motion control arenas.

at least 4GB of RAM

6 core CPU (to beat PS3, it's gonna need it)

GPU that is more powerful than RSX (probably by a good bit, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the CPU able to lend a hand as well like with PS3)

some very fast bandwidth connecting all that together

Solid state HDD, cloud storage/saves as well

If ninty were smart:

cross game chat, invites, join from friends list, no fucking 80 number long "Friend codes", and some sort of pay online service like PS+.

Yay! next gen is coming... now the speculation starts. It's starting to feel like 2004/2005 all over again!

One thing that would make the screen on the controllers work... if it was a 3D screen like that on the 3DS. Then anyone that bought it, regardless of whether or not they have a 3DTV, would be able to enjoy it in 3D.

That spec is gonna push the retail price over 400USD... Imagine PS3 with four times the RAM and a MUCH better GPU. For 1080P with MSAA in 3D (probably 30Hz per Eye, too) you need a FAT GPU. And I mean something akin to ATI 6850 or even more powerful (at least in PC terms).

Viper
04-15-2011, 07:32 AM
I did my own BOM earlier tonight and I get about $200 for it.

A $35 (probably $25 for vendor price) already walks all over the PS3 GPU. A $70 GPU is easily several times more powerful. A 6850 in a closed system would just be nasty.

Segitz
04-15-2011, 07:42 AM
More powerful is not the question here. If we want "more powerful than PS3 at 4xMSAA 1080P and 3D", you need a LOT more power than RSX. My 8800GTS is already a lot more powerful than RSX, yet anything beyond 1680x1050 (with 2 or 4x MSAA) makes the games unplayable... and that is below 30Hz. For 3D to work you need 60Hz, 30Hz for each eye.

Though, with their recent comments about how they wait for glasses-less 3D, I doubt Nintendo will go with 3D... but on the other hand, TV technology is independent of console tech, as long as the connector (HDMI1.4a) stays the same. So if a glasses-less TV comes out soon, they might still do it.

The other question would be, if they actually need to target 1080P3D, because as of now, 1080P3D only gives you 24Hz per eye, which might not be enough for gaming.

Viper
04-15-2011, 08:21 AM
4xMSAA 1080P in a closed system could be done easily with an 8800 GTS. And a modern equivalent to an 8800 GTS would run about $25.

Want something a few levels more powerful, a modern $60 GPU in a closed system would give you plenty.

Segitz
04-15-2011, 09:11 AM
Well... the 8800GTS was (back then) the biggest GPU chip ever made. I doubt anyone could produce it at that price. Though I give you that closed system will give it a boost. 1080P with 4xMSAA will need a LOT of RAM for the framebuffer and a lot of bandwidth, though. Twice that if they go for 3D.

Viper
04-15-2011, 09:21 AM
Sure it was big, but that's also nVidia's architecture at work there. They are the king of the giant monolithic GPU. Nintendo is in bed with ATi (AMD now) who are known for pushing just as much power from a much smaller die size. The 8800 was 484 mm with 681 million transistors. The HD 6700 series would walk all over it with a die size if just 170 mm and 1.04 billion transistors all for about $60.

As for RAM, did you see what I posted about that already? 4 GB is going for about $38 right now. Probably under $30 from the vendor. More than plenty for 4xMSAA, 1080p @ 60 fps.

Segitz
04-15-2011, 09:23 AM
Sure sure... I just put the 8800GTS as a comparison here, as it was released more or less day and date with the PS3 (and since I have one).

Viper
04-15-2011, 09:23 AM
Fact is, they'd actually have to try real hard to make a console less powerful than the PS3 because all the vendor components right now are superior. They'd have to specifically order inferior parts which would end up costing more.

Segitz
04-15-2011, 10:14 AM
Not necessarily. They can just buy the IP, similar to what MS did, and fab the stuff themselves. It's not the same as with HDDs, where there are basically no rentable fabs that can do this. Chips however, especially older ones, can be made this way. Can Nintendo fab stuff themselves?

Plus, they might even go the ARM route. With parts like Tegra2 and newer, they could surpass the Wii easily and make it a cheaper system, too.

Luis
04-15-2011, 10:15 AM
The power should be moderately high, as I think Nintendo will just opt for the best value for their money. That is, the most modern hardware they can afford while making the final product profitable since launch.

The new system could probably feel underpowered compared to the following systems in terms of raw power, but much like the 3DS, they'd implement modern shaders and whatnot that would make graphics appear to be more detailed than what they really are like.

Viper
04-15-2011, 10:24 AM
Not necessarily. They can just buy the IP, similar to what MS did, and fab the stuff themselves. It's not the same as with HDDs, where there are basically no rentable fabs that can do this. Chips however, especially older ones, can be made this way. Can Nintendo fab stuff themselves?

Plus, they might even go the ARM route. With parts like Tegra2 and newer, they could surpass the Wii easily and make it a cheaper system, too.
They don't fab anything themselves.

Sony has 168,000 employees.
Nintendo has 4,200.

And I don't see them going ARM or Tegra2. No point in either at all. They'll likely stick with IBM and ATi (AMD). Going ARM and Tegra2 wouldn't even get them to X360/PS3 level and this thing is supposedly going to surpass it.

Segitz
04-15-2011, 10:57 AM
Supposedly NGP was as powerful as PS3 too... you know the language they use. Well... I guess this is all speculation anyways...

SadPanda
04-15-2011, 11:10 AM
For whatever its worth can we please nix the power brick on the cord? I don't care if it's like the N64 but just put that damned thing in the system.

Luis
04-15-2011, 11:41 AM
Supposedly NGP was as powerful as PS3 too... you know the language they use. Well... I guess this is all speculation anyways...

The raw power may not be there, but surely once they start to make the system sing, they'll obtain remarkable results and they'll get close enough. There have to be details and effects that can be recreated in a cheaper way given the more modern hardware.

Viper
04-15-2011, 12:27 PM
The raw power may not be there, but surely once they start to make the system sing, they'll obtain remarkable results and they'll get close enough. There have to be details and effects that can be recreated in a cheaper way given the more modern hardware.

This and the PSP2 is using 1/4th the screen resolution (compared to 1080p). PSP2 is not as powerful as a PS3. I'd say not even half as powerful. But what it does have is modern shaders, good texture resolutions and a small, sharp screen. Makes it sorta 'look' like PS3 graphics.

Taking a look at the RSX GPixels (4.4) and comparing that to modern GPU's, even an HD 6570 tops it (5.2) and they don't even sell that on the market. It's an OEM only part for HTPC's.

I just don't see how Nintendo could launch a system that doesn't exceed the PS3 unless they purposefully order components to do so which would probably cost just as much due to economies of scale.

SadPanda
04-15-2011, 12:45 PM
Well we all hope that it would be easy to top the PS3 given the time span between the two. Besides if our very own iSupply (viper) can spec a potential machine at $200. They could price it like the Wii at launch ($250) and still be cheeper than the PS3 w/Move or Kinect bundled 360. Toss in motion control superior to Move and or Kinect and thats going to be a really attractive system for those who have a Wii (if BC is confirmed) and no other next gen system (there are a lot of them).

OmniStalgic
04-15-2011, 01:05 PM
I say good move by Ninty, Sony and MS don't really need an upgrade as much, (MS do a little with DVD) but in order to not be overshadowed by a "Wii2 hype", they simply need to re-market there system--which can be difficult, but MS did it with a HD camera so:shrug:

Overall though, this should be a system more tailored to hobbyist gamers with a vastly improved online system, which is always a welcome addition, though I have no interest in picking up a new home console anytime soon with the new handheld releases this year. I'm positive it'll be PS3 powerful and at an affordable price, I don't see why Nintendo would abandon a successful site.

goku2057
04-15-2011, 01:10 PM
As teh Jimminator already said, basically ANY PC GPU destroys the RSX. I'm rocking a 8 GB quad core beast with a 460 GT that would destroy the PS3, and it only cost me like 600 bucks.

Segitz
04-15-2011, 01:25 PM
And such a system would've cost you about 2000USD or more if you wanted to buy it in 2006, which is when PS3 came out.

frosty
04-15-2011, 01:33 PM
And you fail to remember that RSX isn't the only thing in PS3 pushing the visuals, cell helps also. Not to say both can't still be destroyed by today's hardware, but just pointing that out.

goku2057
04-15-2011, 02:19 PM
Other than the graphics card, I've had it since 2007 early. So comparibly it's close.

Oh, i understand, Dustin. Just saying that PC's are totally underworked by today's stuff. Most console games could run incredibly well on any of them.

frosty
04-15-2011, 02:40 PM
It says the console will include a custom IBM PowerPC CPU with three cores, a GPU from the ATI R700 family with a shader unit at version 4.1, and at least 512Mb of RAM.

This would of course make HD console ports very easy for developers, but 'Project Café' will also include backwards compatibility with both the Wii (including all peripherals) and GameCube games, it's said.

The controller has a six-inch touch screen, a front-facing camera, D-Pad, two bumpers, two triggers and "possibly more," and can allegedly be used as a Wii sensor bar.

Late 2012 is the release date, and another "big surprise" about the console is set to be revealed at E3, the report concludes.

Doesn't look to be quite as powerful as PS3, which is disappointing. Better GPU, but 3 cores isn't going to outperform the Cell's 6 most likely. I think releasing a console that is weaker than the most powerful 5 year old console on the market is a big mistake. They need to take the screen and camera off that controller and put some decent hardware in the console itself. And 512MB of RAM, in an age where cell phones have double that, is unacceptable.

Segitz
04-15-2011, 03:24 PM
R700 with 512MB (I imagine the RAM is only VRAM, hopefully for Ninties sake) might also be slower than RSX... though I doubt that they go with anything below the 4650. The CPU sounds like it could be a XeCPU derived part... I mean, who else makes 3 core CPUs? AMD did once, but those were 4 cores with a disabled one.

goku2057
04-15-2011, 05:27 PM
Could the cores be hyper threaded? Or is Intel the only people who make that technology? So 3 physical cores with 3 logical cores as well.

frosty
04-15-2011, 05:46 PM
well, 360's 3 cores can handle 2 threads at once if i remember right, so it wouldn't exactly give nintendo's box an advantage if it could. it depends on the speed. It still probably would not pass cell's power.

Luis
04-15-2011, 05:47 PM
Could the cores be hyper threaded? Or is Intel the only people who make that technology? So 3 physical cores with 3 logical cores as well.I think hyperthreading is a commercial brand or similar, but surely the cores will be multithreaded (generic term).

goku2057
04-15-2011, 05:59 PM
I was just curious if any of the consoles used this technology.

Segitz
04-15-2011, 06:19 PM
I think hyperthreading is a commercial brand or similar, but surely the cores will be multithreaded (generic term).

It's called symmetric multithreading. And it's not like you can run twice the threads if your CPU supports it. It's more or less just there to improve the load on the redundant units within your CPU. Just look at most benchmarks done for HT CPUs... oftentimes programs actually suffer a performance loss if HT is enabled. Others, which are more aware gain a bit, but nothing to write home about, usually.

360 and PS3 use SMT too, but I cannot comment on its performance really. I simply don't know how efficient it is.

Luis
04-15-2011, 07:07 PM
I'd say multithreading can be a big deal for game programmers, since they're always going to have to tailor their software around fixed technical specs.

I remember Carmack complaining that Cell only featured multithreading in the PPU while the SPUs weren't multithreaded. I guess that having 5 or 6 cores available for games can't possibly make up for that :-P

Segitz
04-15-2011, 08:08 PM
Of course it makes a difference in a closed system. But that's only when you program with that stuff in mind early on AND have to budget to do so AND your code permits you to do so, too. It's basically like this, your CPU has several execution pipelines for different tasks, say for Integer stuff and for Floating Point stuff. If one path of your code mostly does Integer and little Floating Point and your other path does it the other way around, you can gain a lot of speed. But if both have the same needs, the gain is nullified. At least that's how I interpret Hyperthreading.

http://www.overclock.net/intel-cpus/904301-benchmarks-i7-overclock-ht-performance-scaling.html

These are some Core i7 benchmarks comparing HT on and off... It's PC games, I know, but as you can see, HT can even have real negative effects, if the code starts to thrash the cache or of one threads starves the other.

SadPanda
04-15-2011, 08:45 PM
... or its a title from Blizzard (http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/) and slows the frack down for no good reason ...

Segitz
04-15-2011, 08:59 PM
It's not just SC2... a LOT of programs suffer from it. Most games do, especially ones that cannot handle more than 2 cores...

SadPanda
04-15-2011, 09:04 PM
I know its not just SC2, but thats the game i play (and loose at) the most.

Fallax
04-16-2011, 12:04 AM
It's rather people waited for a GC successor... because the Wii is just "two GCs duct taped together"... I know this is trolling, yet me, as a bit of a graphics whore cannot play Wii games anymore, mainly because of their looks.

But... announcing/releasing a new console when they already have a new one just released would be a bit backwards.

It wouldn't be backwards at all. To be truthful, it would make sense to announce the new console now, especially if some of my theories come to fruition.


Nintendo likes making money from the start. Assuming they would be using BluRay wouldn't that one feature alone still be a bit costly never mind the horsepower to top the 360 and PS3?

It wouldn't be very expensive to use a Blue-ray player now. I bought mine last year for $75. Surely Nintendo could get an inexpensive Blu-Ray player.


It seems like that would add a lot of unnecessary cost to the console if they do the HD screen in the controller, but at the same time it would be damn cool to be able to do things separate from the main game screen that others in the room cannot see.

That was one advantage to LCD shutter glasses that sony was talking about exploiting, instead of alternating left eye/right eye, it would alternate player 1, player 2, etc... up to 4 players. This would give nintendo a way of combating that if Sony were to implement it, and it wouldn't require a 3DTV.

I think making the screens "HD" would be a stupid thing to do though. It would only require a display for showing basic information like the play you want to select in Madden.

They saying "HD" is just to make it sound cool. I doubt it would be real HD (meaning 720p). It'll probably be a high resolution LCD screen, like 800 x 650 or something like that.

I am very interested in that InPhase technology but would it be expensive to make?

Dralor
04-16-2011, 12:42 AM
I really hope the 6 inch hd screen in the controller is just a rumor as that would be awful kill batteries and make the controller very very bulky. If they want to do something like the PSP remote play every game make it an accessory not a function on the controller.

Generosity of God
04-16-2011, 01:14 AM
streaming entire games to a screen on the controller could be a nice feature.

if you only have one tv in the house, you can just play it all on the controller screen.

what would be even better is if you could stream different games to different controllers. but how powerful a system would be needed for that?

and then what happens to all the motion control stuff. are they going to have the screen controller and a Wii like controller to cover all bases?

i hate all this speculation. it just too difficult to do when it's related to future Nintendo hardware. you're more than likely to speculate incorrectly.

Fallax
04-16-2011, 01:17 AM
streaming entire games to a screen on the controller could be a nice feature.

if you only have one tv in the house, you can just play it all on the controller screen.

what would be even better is if you could stream different games to different controllers. but how powerful a system would be needed for that?

and then what happens to all the motion control stuff. are they going to have the screen controller and a Wii like controller to cover all bases?

i hate all this speculation. it just too difficult to do when it's related to future Nintendo hardware. you're more than likely to speculate incorrectly.

Thats the larger issue. How is Nintendo going to have a 6 inch screen and a Wii motion controller? Or are the abandoning what they started? We will have to wait and see.

Dralor
04-16-2011, 01:19 AM
Not really as it could just as easily be an accessory or the 3DS like Sony does with the PSP not on all games though and not make the controller giant and clunky.

And as for the multiple games will never happen unless the system is weak enough system is the controller as the the system still needs to priocess the game it just sends the data to the screen.

masteratt
04-16-2011, 02:50 AM
And as for the multiple games will never happen unless the system is weak enough system is the controller as the the system still needs to priocess the game it just sends the data to the screen.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_jWNhyMUpjSE/TH2SdhgzjiI/AAAAAAAAHPA/jNzmMB1Krrs/s1600/cat-wut.jpg

Dralor
04-16-2011, 02:55 AM
He was asking about being able to stream different games to different controllers at the same time.

Crazybone126
04-16-2011, 03:00 AM
He was asking about being able to stream different games to different controllers at the same time.

Yeah, but your wording, grammar, punctuation, and spelling makes that sentence unreadable. I also, do not know what you were saying.

frosty
04-16-2011, 03:05 AM
He was saying that the system might be too weak enough system to process the multiple controller input screen if you look at the power needed for screen system multiple input you can tell that the power system needed for screen controller would be too great to allow for the display of multiple power system.

Dralor
04-16-2011, 04:00 AM
More specifically I was saying it could never happen as the way these systems work the console still processes the game and sends the data over wifi to the screen which does little to no processing. When you press something on the controller it will then send data back the button was pressed but all this is still being processed on the console. So for separate games to work on separate controllers assuming the same console is involved it would require all the processing power to fit within the controller making the controller essentially the console which in turn would invalidate the reason for having the box to begin with.

Viper
04-16-2011, 06:21 AM
Doesn't look to be quite as powerful as PS3, which is disappointing. Better GPU, but 3 cores isn't going to outperform the Cell's 6 most likely. Why not? Look what Sandy Bridge with 4 cores id doing to AMD with 6 cores. Destroying it. And given the fact is likely they'll be using IBM again and would likely be based on Power6 or Power7, it would easily surpass the CELL.


R700 with 512MB (I imagine the RAM is only VRAM, hopefully for Ninties sake) might also be slower than RSX... How would a Radeon from the R700 family (launches this summer) be slower than the RSX?


Could the cores be hyper threaded? Or is Intel the only people who make that technology? So 3 physical cores with 3 logical cores as well.IBM has their own multithreading system can do actually do 4 threads per core.


I am very interested in that InPhase technology but would it be expensive to make?Sadly they went out of business in Feb of 2010 but were bought up by Signal Lake a month later. Signal Lake was the primary founder and investor of the company anyway and Nintendo still co-owns that holographic storage patent with them.

frosty
04-16-2011, 06:38 AM
R700 launched in 2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_R700), nobody knows if they're putting a power 6/7 in it, just that it's a custom chip. Remember, Wii's was custom also but was nowhere near the best IBM could throw their way back in 2006. That honor went to Sony. While I don't doubt it'll be able to hold it's own, I wouldn't expect too much given the fact that the other specs aren't that impressive.

Segitz
04-16-2011, 08:55 AM
Why not? Look what Sandy Bridge with 4 cores id doing to AMD with 6 cores. Destroying it. And given the fact is likely they'll be using IBM again and would likely be based on Power6 or Power7, it would easily surpass the CELL.

Sandy Bridge vs. Amd x6 is a bit of a bad example here. First, the x6 is 2 generations older and second, most software is already at the edge of multithreading optimization with 4 cores... I know this example (old Cell vs new Power6 or 7) is comparable, but Cell is different enough as it is, so the comparison is even less valid.

Well it depends. The SPUs in terms of raw power are quite a lot faster than normal CPU cores. Though they are more limited too, as they don't like branchy code and whatnot. And... as with all CPUs no matter what series, there are fast and there are slow ones. Who's to say Nintendo will go for 3.2Ghz? That's a lot of heat, if they run with a bigger chip. They could just as well let it run slower to lower the heat envelope.


How would a Radeon from the R700 family (launches this summer) be slower than the RSX?

R700 != HD7000 series. The R700 chips are the HD4000 series. And based on that the chip is likely to be faster than both XeGPU and RSX, if they don't go for the lower end laptop chips, which they might, considering the Wii itself. Small, low powered system. It could still produce games similar to PS3 or 360, though.


IBM has their own multithreading system can do actually do 4 threads per core.


And there are Vector CPUs that can 100 times as many vector operations compared to current CPUs, but they aren't in any consoles... just because it's there doesn't mean it makes sense to use it.

OmniStalgic
04-16-2011, 12:27 PM
You guys are downplaying the specs a little bit. I have no doubt the next-gen Ninty console will be on par with both PS3 & 360 if it's releasing next year. Obviously, Nintendo will try a new idea with this console, but if it's backwards compatible, I'm sure it will have some form of motion control, or even that your old Wii-motes still work with this new console, something user friendly, something affordable, Nintendo aren't stupid. They've made 2 of the most successful consoles in a declining economy, they know what to market, who to market to, and how to make things appealing and affordable for a good number of consumers.

Touch-screen on controller, holding it horizontal, and it feels like a portable handheld system with a touch screen on it. Turn it vertical, and somehow, detaches the screen, and it's an upgraded Wii-mote:shrug:

Sure, that's a simple-minded example, but my point is, Nintendo will make an attractive console that "works" they've been succeeding ever since the criticizes of Gamecube. DS, Wii, 3DS, and now HD time, Nintendo will get it right.

As always it'll come down to games, and Nintendo's biggest problem is getting third party support for there home platforms and getting out of the "it's for casuals" mentality.

Segitz
04-16-2011, 12:39 PM
I don't want to downplay it, but I can't see Nintendo going anywhere near a 4850 for example. That'd be awesome, but ... again I doubt it. And anything lower than that won't yield much more in terms of performance compared to RSX or XeCPU... it will be faster, but nothing to write home about.

Generosity of God
04-16-2011, 01:33 PM
i realize you guys actually know what you're talking about but this is pretty much what i'm seeing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aEsvcQSjlI

Raijin
04-16-2011, 01:43 PM
Anything today is better than the RSX or the Xenos. Really, even a Geforce 420 GTS would be better than the very unspectacular RSX (which is barely a 7600 GT in terms of perf).

OmniStalgic
04-16-2011, 05:32 PM
i realize you guys actually know what you're talking about but this is pretty much what i'm seeing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aEsvcQSjlIread my post above:cool: lol

frosty
04-16-2011, 05:51 PM
If that's all you're seeing, then just keep playing your Wii. Specs do matter, a lot. This generation with the Wii proved that. Wii got gimped on many great games (and had the few it did get gimped as well) due to it's lack of power.

Segitz
04-16-2011, 07:29 PM
And... the 64bit stuff of Jaguar was actually pretty much a smoke screen. There was a 64bit chip inside, but the rest was still 32bit and less. And it was a bitch to program for, from what I've read.

But better tech doesn't just result in better graphics. Just look at the leap in gameplay mechanics. Stuff like AC or GTA4 cannot be done on old hardware. And I am not saying sandbox games, but the tech behind it. Physics and stuff.

Viper
04-16-2011, 07:32 PM
Sandy Bridge vs. Amd x6 is a bit of a bad example here. First, the x6 is 2 generations older and second, most software is already at the edge of multithreading optimization with 4 cores... I know this example (old Cell vs new Power6 or 7) is comparable, but Cell is different enough as it is, so the comparison is even less valid.More to the point, I was simply stating that you can't look at cores and use that as the measure of absolute power. Just because the CPU may only be 3 cores, how can you possibly state that it is automatically less powerful than the CELL. The ONLY spec is number of cores.


Who's to say Nintendo will go for 3.2Ghz? That's a lot of heat, if they run with a bigger chip. They could just as well let it run slower to lower the heat envelope.
Actually, a Power6 or Power7 CPU at 3.2 would run very cool. Power6 have a base clock of 4.2 Ghz (4 to 8 cores). Power7 have a base clock of about 3.7 Ghz (and 6 cores). So just 3 cores at 3.2 Ghz would run quite nicely.



R700 != HD7000 series. The R700 chips are the HD4000 series. And based on that the chip is likely to be faster than both XeGPU and RSX, if they don't go for the lower end laptop chips, which they might, considering the Wii itself. Small, low powered system. It could still produce games similar to PS3 or 360, though.Yeah, I got the name convention backwards. Picked that up in the other thread. But after considering it, there is no incentive to use that GPU family. Since they are moving into the programmable shader world, going with a lower power but more modern GPU makes a lot more sense. Especially given that the price wouldn't really change to use it.



And there are Vector CPUs that can 100 times as many vector operations compared to current CPUs, but they aren't in any consoles... just because it's there doesn't mean it makes sense to use it.
Of course. But it also doesn't make sense to look at a non-contextual core count and devise how powerful it will be compared to other CPU's. I was merely answering Fallax's question in that can other CPU makers do multithreading and gave IBM's version given that it's likely Nintendo will stick with IBM as the CPU vendor of choice.

Segitz
04-16-2011, 07:38 PM
So... our standing point now is... we don't know anything, but we still disagree^^

Viper
04-16-2011, 07:40 PM
So... our standing point now is... we don't know anything, but we still disagree^^

Something like that.

I think that's the problem with all these reports. Sounded OK at first and then just started getting into BS territory.

Segitz
04-16-2011, 09:03 PM
If the reports are correct (3 core PPC, R700, >=512MB RAM) the only question remaining is the TDP. Will they go low again, as they always did? Something about 50 Watts. Then we will get more or less PS3/360 kind of performance, like current mid-end laptops (which still retail for more than 600€ mind you), maybe a wee bit more. Or will they go to 100 Watts. Then we get PS3/360 quality at 1080P possibly, but still no 3D or possibly 60Hz. 150 Watts then we can talk that.

And from what I've seen Nintendo do stuff, it's most likely the first option. It's the cheapest to produce, thus it most likely fits their credo of profit from the get go. It's smaller and lighter, which is good for the "family" factor. I doubt we'll see an HDD in it... a small flash RAM akin to the Wii is most likely. A bit more than 512MB though. Hopefully it'll be expandable, like with the Wii now.

Fallax
04-17-2011, 01:30 AM
If the reports are correct (3 core PPC, R700, >=512MB RAM) the only question remaining is the TDP. Will they go low again, as they always did? Something about 50 Watts. Then we will get more or less PS3/360 kind of performance, like current mid-end laptops (which still retail for more than 600€ mind you), maybe a wee bit more. Or will they go to 100 Watts. Then we get PS3/360 quality at 1080P possibly, but still no 3D or possibly 60Hz. 150 Watts then we can talk that.

And from what I've seen Nintendo do stuff, it's most likely the first option. It's the cheapest to produce, thus it most likely fits their credo of profit from the get go. It's smaller and lighter, which is good for the "family" factor. I doubt we'll see an HDD in it... a small flash RAM akin to the Wii is most likely. A bit more than 512MB though. Hopefully it'll be expandable, like with the Wii now.


They can easily charge more and get the same profit, no matter how much it costs them. The 3DS costs more, and they are getting more profit. I could see the next console being $299.95. And 512mb ram vs 1GB ram really wont make a difference money wise (but the processor, obviously will). And the choice of media. Which, I think Blu-ray is possible, but unlikely. Not b/c of price, but because I just can't see Nintendo doing it (but I would like it if I can play my BR movies on my Wii 2!!!).

GTAce
04-17-2011, 01:43 AM
Can't believe we are already approaching the next console generation.... fuck I'm getting old.

frosty
04-17-2011, 01:44 AM
Going on my 7th now.

Viper
04-17-2011, 02:28 AM
RAM costs are nothing right now. 4 GB's for $30 from a vendor. 512 MB would be silly as it would limit the 1080p resolution and AA. Also the fact that DDR3 comes in 512 MB per chip now. iSuppli is billing the 2GB flash card bundled with the 3DS at just ~$2.

Dralor
04-17-2011, 06:01 AM
Crytek wants 8GB's of it which I sure wouldn't complain about.

Viper
04-17-2011, 06:07 AM
8 GB's of RAM?

TimmyJ
04-17-2011, 06:52 AM
That's what I'd like to see as a bare minimum next generation... although I'd have liked to have seen 1GB as a bare minimum this generation. So yeah...

Viper
04-17-2011, 06:59 AM
8 GB's would be overkill. Even an HD 6990 pushing 5 1980 x 1080 monitors runs on just 2 GB's. 8 GB's would simply never get used.

Dralor
04-17-2011, 07:10 AM
Viper give it to them and they will find a way to use it.

Segitz
04-17-2011, 07:15 AM
And what about the PC underneath that GPU? That has AT THE LEAST 4GB, if not 6GB (3x2GB triple channel) or 8GB.

Viper
04-17-2011, 07:19 AM
Viper give it to them and they will find a way to use it.

They have it on PC's all the time and never use it. My GPU has 1 GB but I have 4 GB's of system RAM. Sure, I'll max my VRAM when gaming at 1920 x 1080 with 4xAA but the system RAM doesn't even come close to maxing out. If that were 8 GB's in a shared pool (like some consoles use), it might use 1.5 to 2 GB's for VRAM and another 2GB's for system. You'd have half your RAM sitting idle. Maybe as a high speed swap or stream (which isn't even done on the PC) but if they use a flash ram based media, it's irrelevant.

Dralor
04-17-2011, 07:53 AM
It's an issue of not making so no one but the highest end computers can use it. With consoles it's a closed box so that's not an issue.

Segitz
04-17-2011, 08:23 AM
PC games are 99% 32bit programs, which cannot allocate more than 4GB in one block. Windows XP probably poses additional problems in this regard. What I can say, though, is that my 320MB GPU is getting maxed out in memory usage with current games at 1680x1050 without AA. My laptop with 1024MB has resources left, but... for what? The chip is too slow to effectively use it anyways.

Viper
04-17-2011, 08:50 AM
64 bit OS's are much more prolific now (programs need to catch up though). I can run my PC with mostly 64 bit programs (a dozen at once) and have trouble even passing 2 GB of use.

Also just considered something. If Nintendo is willing to put 128 MB of RAM in the 3DS, I'm pretty certain they won't go with 512 MB for N6. DS was just 4 MB. They gave its successor one hell of a jump.

Dralor
04-17-2011, 08:05 PM
Um Viper 128Mb is still incredibly low in this age considering the PSP-2000 had 64 and the NGP is looking at atleast 512.

Viper
04-17-2011, 09:00 PM
128 MB sounds low because we're used to seeing devices and computers that run a shit ton of background applications. A game consoles doesn't need all that and it's a closed system so it needs even less. But that's beyond the point. I was stating that they took the DS from 4 MB to the 3DS with 128. That's a huge jump.

Dralor
04-18-2011, 01:27 AM
Viper that's like saying computers will never need more then 128kb's of Ram. It's low for this day and age. That doesn't mean the system is horribly crippled or or a bad system but the amount of ram in it is low for this day and age.

Viper
04-18-2011, 01:43 AM
It's low because it's a closed system that doesn't need gobs of background RAM. I'm not pulling a Bill Gates here and claiming no system should ever need more than 128 MB's of RAM. I'm saying for the 3DS, it's fine because of the type of system it is. But above that is my underlying point that you're missing. The jump from 4 to 128 is huge. IF we can use that as any form of indication for the N6, Nintendo will take the Wii's 91 MB's and make another sizable jump. 4 to 128 is huge. 91 to 512 is not.


In a closed system, you put in as much VRAM as is required to perform certain tasks plus some extra for headroom. Adding a ton more is just adding costs that won't amount to anything. Do you see a performance difference in the average 4 GB computer after you add another 4 GB? No. Not a single solitary perceivable difference in performance because 4 GB is already exceeding the usage volume used by the average system.

Dralor
04-18-2011, 01:51 AM
Yes and the consoles are closed systems and two of them have 512MB of ram. You are just making excuses which are at best semi-valid. It's low that's it no ifs ands or buts. No more no less.

Viper
04-18-2011, 01:58 AM
Dralor, 128 MB for the 3DS is not low. If it were a PS3, yes, that would be low. For a 3DS, it's fine. But if you insist, please explain to me exactly why it is low. And don't use some arbitrary answer about other systems have more because that doesn't explain anything.

Dralor
04-18-2011, 02:28 AM
Yes it is though all you are doing is giving me excuses as for why closed systems can look better with equal ram and items with less ram can look compairative to devices with hefty OSes.

It is low because comparatively to all the devices around at the time of launch only set top boxes use 128MB of Ram anymore. So that is a system which plays games is using the same level of ram as a device that flips channels, runs a tv guide, and some movies on demand. This is not a DVR but a regular set top box. Smart phones that run do not multitask very well. See 2 or 3 things at once have more Ram. Meanwhile consoles are becoming more and more PC like with heavier OSes and things like internet browsers, video playback of multiple formats etc. Nintendo itself says it wants to be able to have a browser open without closing a game. Samsung itself is presently producing a 4Gb lpddr2 chip which offers comparable performance to the 3DS's ram with 4 times the amount of ram in the 3DS on one chip. While from what I recall the 3DS is using 2 chips so that's an 8x increase per chip. Consoles for their ram have regularly used the highest density available chips at the time just with less chips then on the PC side.

Viper
04-18-2011, 02:39 AM
So again, your using the fact that other system have more RAM as the reason it is low.

I told you that is arbitrary. It's irrelevant to the 3DS how much another system has. If the 3DS can push all 268,800 pixels (PS3 and set top devices have to push up to 2,073,600 pixels) with 3D effects and AA @ 60hz, handle decent A.I., can be paused in mid game to bring up the basic OS and then a web browser and more with just 128 MB of RAM, you don't need more. Doubling it would be a waste.

And as I noted above regarding your DVR example, look what pixel count it has to push. Look what audio 5.1 to 7.1 formats it has to push. Look what kind of streaming frame buffer is required.

I said this before, you don't shoot flies with a shotgun.

Dralor
04-18-2011, 02:45 AM
Um it isn't a DVR it's a regular set top box and Viper all things are relative you can't say anything is low without comparing to other devices if there is no comparison there is no ability to tell what is high or low it just is. And for you don't shoot flies with a shotgun you also don't shoot deer with a popgun unless you have a point of comparison you can't do either.

Viper
04-18-2011, 02:53 AM
Um it isn't a DVR it's a regular set top box and Viper all things are relative you can't say anything is low without comparing to other devices if there is no comparison there is no ability to tell what is high or low it just is. And for you don't shoot flies with a shotgun you also don't shoot deer with a popgun unless you have a point of comparison you can't do either.
OK, My GPU has has 1 GB of VRAM. My system has 4 GB's of RAM. That means according to you that the Set top devices and phones have low RAM.

BUT, the Tianhe-1A computer has 262 Terabytes of RAM. That means, according to you, that every thing else on the whole frikkin planet has low RAM.

High or low RAM is dependent on where it's enough or not to carry out the tasks of the system efficiently without being a bottleneck or needing to swap out too often.

If you are simply looking at the numbers in a quantitative aspect, then sure the numbers are relative but still irrelevant.

Dralor
04-18-2011, 03:07 AM
No I'm am looking at the numbers in a relative aspect phones don't do much more than game devices and have just recently with the advent of multi-core added the ability to multitask. Set top boxes to relatively less as all they do is decode the signal, output and run a guide if it's not a dvr. Meanwhile the 3DS plans not to only run it's games but have a browser than can be run at the same time plus whatever the growing OS overhead is. Add this to the fact you can get 512MB of ram form a single chip while the 3DS seems to have 64MB per chip it's not hard to figure out that a browser would benefit from more ram even if you make the wild assumption the games wouldn't. So it's very easy to see that for little to no extra money they could of had more ram and thus a more usable device.

Your GPU however has 1GB of ram probably on 4-8 ram chips. Your system has 4GB on many more just count the chips per stick to add that up and however many you have to add to the supercomputers. Cost of ram goes up more per chip then it does density per chip as added complexity with the memory controller and motherboard/ramboard. You appear operating under the premise that nothing needs more memory than it does until it can show you it does which is pointless for any console type device as a version with more ram is never going to be built to show you what could of been if they would of gone with that.

Oh btw what has been a consistent complaint of every dev for every hardware gen as it starts hitting the midpoint going forward? Sure some complain about cpu or gpu power or programmability but every gen on every console or handheld ever made has had devs wishing for more RAM in it. You can never have enough Ram in the system no matter what you think at the beginning of the gen.

Fallax
04-18-2011, 04:31 AM
No I'm am looking at the numbers in a relative aspect phones don't do much more than game devices and have just recently with the advent of multi-core added the ability to multitask. Set top boxes to relatively less as all they do is decode the signal, output and run a guide if it's not a dvr. Meanwhile the 3DS plans not to only run it's games but have a browser than can be run at the same time plus whatever the growing OS overhead is. Add this to the fact you can get 512MB of ram form a single chip while the 3DS seems to have 64MB per chip it's not hard to figure out that a browser would benefit from more ram even if you make the wild assumption the games wouldn't. So it's very easy to see that for little to no extra money they could of had more ram and thus a more usable device.

Your GPU however has 1GB of ram probably on 4-8 ram chips. Your system has 4GB on many more just count the chips per stick to add that up and however many you have to add to the supercomputers. Cost of ram goes up more per chip then it does density per chip as added complexity with the memory controller and motherboard/ramboard. You appear operating under the premise that nothing needs more memory than it does until it can show you it does which is pointless for any console type device as a version with more ram is never going to be built to show you what could of been if they would of gone with that.

Oh btw what has been a consistent complaint of every dev for every hardware gen as it starts hitting the midpoint going forward? Sure some complain about cpu or gpu power or programmability but every gen on every console or handheld ever made has had devs wishing for more RAM in it. You can never have enough Ram in the system no matter what you think at the beginning of the gen.

http://xbox.about.com/od/xbox2/a/xbox360specs.htm The Xbox 360 has 512mb of RAM. What Viper was initially talking about is Nintendo times the RAM in the DS (4MB) by 32. If they do that with the Wii, last time I checked, it would be around 2GB's of RAM. That's not a whole lot, but enough to do some good.

And for the record, yes you can never have enough RAM. But that was not the original discussion.

Dralor
04-18-2011, 04:40 AM
That was the discussion I was going for considering they could have more for little to no extra cost which tells me there is too little ram but this discussion has become pointless as it's clear neither me nor Viper will budge from our ideas so it's better to just end it now as we agree to disagree rather then continue shooting at the wall so to speak.

Fallax
04-18-2011, 05:28 AM
That was the discussion I was going for considering they could have more for little to no extra cost which tells me there is too little ram but this discussion has become pointless as it's clear neither me nor Viper will budge from our ideas so it's better to just end it now as we agree to disagree rather then continue shooting at the wall so to speak.

Thank you!

Segitz
04-18-2011, 05:51 AM
Well... Viper is right that consoles usually need a lot less RAM compared to multi purpose devices like PCs or Smartphones. But even today 4GB RAM is a lot more than even Windows 7 uses, when it's idling. Disabling the Swap tells you how much it actually uses. And that's about 1.2GB, if you don't indulge into hundreds of auturun programs. That leaves you with 3GB of free RAM at any given time. Plus, the system can swap out unused stuff at runtime, meaning these 1.2GB can be made smaller if there is any need. Though, most current games don't usually take up more than 2GB as a whole (Windows has to have a shadow copy of the GPU RAM in main RAM to enable fast task switching). But this is also in a time when most PC games are mere console ports, too.

Viper
04-18-2011, 06:01 AM
Well... Viper is right that consoles usually need a lot less RAM compared to multi purpose devices like PCs or Smartphones. But even today 4GB RAM is a lot more than even Windows 7 uses, when it's idling. Disabling the Swap tells you how much it actually uses. And that's about 1.2GB, if you don't indulge into hundreds of auturun programs. That leaves you with 3GB of free RAM at any given time. Plus, the system can swap out unused stuff at runtime, meaning these 1.2GB can be made smaller if there is any need. Though, most current games don't usually take up more than 2GB as a whole (Windows has to have a shadow copy of the GPU RAM in main RAM to enable fast task switching). But this is also in a time when most PC games are mere console ports, too.
Thank you!

Theo
04-18-2011, 07:44 AM
Is there not a difference also in the sense that cosoles are closed systems, meaning you can do more with less so to speak? I mean looking at 360 and ps3, I sometimes wonder how for example Uncharted2 and Killzone2 can be done with so little memory. Then again I'm sure developers could use a bit more memory.

Lets hope the next wii will be atleast a little more powerful than the ps3. Give it normal controllers or even an
option for normal controlles and you most likely have a buyer right here.

frosty
04-18-2011, 09:02 AM
You can do a lot with the current setups, but if you're going to compete with the current setup, you need to do a lot more than they do. The core gamer crowd has chosen it's next gen system already, so for Nintendo to convince folks to buy it, they need something that will appeal to that core gamer that the others do not have. And the mother of all online services, which when going up against tried and true giants like Sony and Microsoft, I don't really know if Ninty's got it in em'.

goku2057
04-18-2011, 01:44 PM
If that's all you're seeing, then just keep playing your Wii. Specs do matter, a lot. This generation with the Wii proved that. Wii got gimped on many great games (and had the few it did get gimped as well) due to it's lack of power.

And yet every other console that has more power got is ass handed to it on a silver platter. Specs don't matter. Games matter. Experiences matter.

GTAce
04-18-2011, 01:54 PM
Sales =/= Quality =/= Fun

Viper
04-18-2011, 04:59 PM
You can do a lot with the current setups, but if you're going to compete with the current setup, you need to do a lot more than they do. The core gamer crowd has chosen it's next gen system already, so for Nintendo to convince folks to buy it, they need something that will appeal to that core gamer that the others do not have. And the mother of all online services, which when going up against tried and true giants like Sony and Microsoft, I don't really know if Ninty's got it in em'.

I agree to a point. They need something to draw the crowd in (all ranges) but we've heard for years from core gamers that they want an HD Wii...so are you saying those gamers wouldn't put their money where their mouth is if Nintendo provided them with one?

Segitz
04-18-2011, 05:07 PM
Well that's true, GTAce, yet... if there's little or no money to be made, nobody will invest in said games. That's the said reality of it.

GTAce
04-18-2011, 05:16 PM
Yes, but every console that got it's "ass handed to it on a silver platter" still had plenty of fantastic games, more than I could ever buy or play, so why I should I care? It's not like the PS3 and 360 weren't sold to many people too.

---------- Post added at 07:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 PM ----------


I agree to a point. They need something to draw the crowd in (all ranges) but we've heard for years from core gamers that they want an HD Wii...so are you saying those gamers wouldn't put their money where their mouth is if Nintendo provided them with one?

People don't just want an "HD Wii", when they say this, they mean a console with the graphics and also games like a PS3 or 360, plus all the typical Nintendo stuff. "HD" means something like Killzone, or Gears, so they are talking about a whole "philosophy change" and not just the resolution, at least that's what I heard from a lot of people.

Viper
04-18-2011, 06:31 PM
People don't just want an "HD Wii", when they say this, they mean a console with the graphics and also games like a PS3 or 360, plus all the typical Nintendo stuff. "HD" means something like Killzone, or Gears, so they are talking about a whole "philosophy change" and not just the resolution, at least that's what I heard from a lot of people.
If Nintendo used a GPU on the same level as the PS3/X360, it would certainly utilize modern shader languages which is THE reason many games from 3rd parties did not find their way to the Wii. So if Nintendo made a Wii (or HD capable console) 3rd parties would have their games all over it.

frosty
04-18-2011, 06:33 PM
I agree to a point. They need something to draw the crowd in (all ranges) but we've heard for years from core gamers that they want an HD Wii...so are you saying those gamers wouldn't put their money where their mouth is if Nintendo provided them with one?

Considering PS3/Move already is a Wii HD, yes. As I said, those core gamers have already bought their next gen system of choice. In order for Nintendo to convince them to dish out another $300 or so, it's gonna have to do things the current crop cannot.

Viper
04-18-2011, 06:38 PM
So they don't want a Wii HD anymore, they want an 8th generation Nintendo console with solid 3rd party support and something unique/innovative.

Looks like that's what Nintendo is working on to me.

frosty
04-18-2011, 07:18 PM
It's going to take a lot more than slapping a screen on the controller to do that though... they need to also see that it does what the current crop of core systems do and then some. visuals that not only compete, but exceed (And I don't mean Gamecube vs. PS2 exceed.). and, the biggest thing that the core gamers are waiting on... a good online system. Not PSN at launch good either, but a very good one. Both XBL and PSN have come a long way, and if Ninty wants to play with the big boys they gotta come out swinging. We're almost 6 years into this generation right now. Nintendo wouldn't be wise to release a new console that fits snugly into this generation... a PS3.5 so to speak, hoping to compete against those aging systems that have spent years establishing themselves amongst the core gamer community, when those 2 console's big brothers are not far down the road.

Perhaps they think there is profit to be made, even if for a little while, but I know that if it's just a slightly better looking PS3 with a worse online service, no movies/music/game download service (or a lame one), etc... I damn sure won't be buying one. Even if it's a slightly better looking PS3 with the same online services... I still won't be buying one. It's going to take a real upgrade to get my interest.

Viper
04-18-2011, 08:28 PM
So we've gone from a Wii HD to a super all-in-one just short of blowjobs console at a very low price.

AC!D
04-18-2011, 08:36 PM
I must say im very disappointed by the fanboy and media reaction to this new Nintendo console. It seems like all that PS3 media bias and hate is now being unfairly directed yet again but this time toward Nintendo.

Even if the new console is on par with the power of current consoles ( which is not even confirmed ) how is it a bad thing?

We havent even seen what Nintendo's designers are capable of creating with better AI, graphics, level design, atmosphere, effects and so much more in games like Prime and Galaxy HD. We dont know anything about this new conroller interface or what their plans for online gaming are to compete against Live and PSN.

I think everyone is jumping the gun and im still excited as hell for their E3 presentation. Anything is better than the Wii in its current form!!!

Metroid HD here we come!!!!

Crazybone126
04-18-2011, 08:40 PM
I must say im very disappointed by the fanboy and media reaction to this new Nintendo console. It seems like all that PS3 media bias and hate is now being unfairly directed yet again but this time toward Nintendo.

Even if the new console is on par with the power of current consoles ( which is not even confirmed ) how is it a bad thing?

We havent even seen what Nintendo's designers are capable of creating with better AI, graphics, level design, atmosphere, effects and so much more in games like Prime and Galaxy HD. We dont know anything about this new conroller interface or what their plans for online gaming are to compete against Live and PSN.

I think everyone is jumping the gun and im still excited as hell for their E3 presentation. Anything is better than the Wii in its current form!!!

Metroid HD here we come!!!!

I think you just said how I've been feeling the best.

Segitz
04-18-2011, 08:53 PM
Well... I guess some of the negative comments come from the Wii itself... the hardcore being very disappointed in the system in general, especially the graphics. I don't have high hopes myself, but I am open for surprises, still.

AC!D
04-18-2011, 09:24 PM
Well... I guess some of the negative comments come from the Wii itself... the hardcore being very disappointed in the system in general, especially the graphics. I don't have high hopes myself, but I am open for surprises, still.

I consider myself part of that core crowd that disliked the way Nintendo went with the Wii but from everything ive read regarding the possibilities on Nintendo's next it seems a lot more core and less casual. No doubt it will be inbetween.

Also i dont think we have scratched the surface yet with what designers are able to achieve on PS3 so i have no problems with Nintendo's next being only slightly more powerful than a PS3. Hell games like inFAMOUS 2, Rage and Uncharted 3 should prove this to you and im blown away with what ive seen. Devs are not ready for next gen yet especially in this worldwide poor economic climate and neither are gamers in the market for expensive next gen systems. Next gen is only just hitting its stride for PC gamers with Battlefield 3 right now so i expect big things and good third party support for Ninty's next.

Sure theres the fear that we will only end up with PS3/360 ports that will just tack on the new interface but amongst all that i expect some third and first party gems. Who knows that new interface might be a game changer also.

One thing i do agree on though is that Ninty really need to bring it against Live and PSN.

Lets wait till E3 though before we all get prematurely disappointed.

Otacon305
04-18-2011, 09:34 PM
Nintendo has been a proud underachiever for some time now. It's like a teacher giving a student an assignment, then the student turns in a paper bag with a piece of dog shit in it, just because some retarded bums in an alley thought it was awesome. Nintendo, and it's games and consoles, are like that movie Gnomeo & Juliet. Why try and make a quality product when you can just appeal to the lowest common denominator who have no standards and will throw away their money at anything?

It saddens me, because I used to love Nintendo. Really love them. Just not enough to swallow the lazy crap they started shoveling out, and let them tell me what was good.

Crazybone126
04-18-2011, 09:39 PM
I consider myself part of that core crowd that disliked the way Nintendo went with the Wii but from everything ive read regarding the possibilities on Nintendo's next it seems a lot more core and less casual. No doubt it will be inbetween.

Also i dont think we have scratched the surface yet with what designers are able to achieve on PS3 so i have no problems with Nintendo's next being only slightly more powerful than a PS3. Hell games like inFAMOUS 2, Rage and Uncharted 3 should prove this to you and im blown away with what ive seen. Devs are not ready for next gen yet especially in this worldwide poor economic climate and neither are gamers in the market for expensive next gen systems. Next gen is only just hitting its stride for PC gamers with Battlefield 3 right now so i expect big things and good third party support for Ninty's next.

Sure theres the fear that we will only end up with PS3/360 ports that will just tack on the new interface but amongst all that i expect some third and first party gems. Who knows that new interface might be a game changer also.

One thing i do agree on though is that Ninty really need to bring it against Live and PSN.

Lets wait till E3 though before we all get prematurely disappointed.

The question is, how can Nintendo actually compete with Live and PSN while making it completely original? They've been doing really cool stuff with the 3DS, but putting those features on a home console would just be irrelevant since it's not a mobile handheld device. In my opinion, when Xbox Live got the avatars, that was the blow to the face to Nintendo because, imo, that's what Nintendo's online should have been from the start. Mii's really didn't do much, and the Everybody Votes Channel and Check Mii Out Channel are literally unused by many. It's just rather ironic how a console that's main focal point was bringing people together and building a community had the most lackluster online system. Nintendo should have taken their own words for advice and applied it to their online, but they didn't.

Viper
04-18-2011, 09:51 PM
AC!D, meet Otacon. He's an alkaline.

Otacon305
04-18-2011, 10:00 PM
I'm a battery?

Or are you referring to my ability to neutralize acids to the equivalence point of carbonate or bicarbonate?

Crazybone126
04-18-2011, 10:28 PM
AC!D, meet Otacon. He's an alkaline.

Haha, science humor.

Otacon305
04-18-2011, 10:35 PM
Oh, I get it now. Cause he's AC!D. I'm so in that mindset where I think of people's usernames as their real names.

I have no interest in "neutralizing" AC!D... at the moment. *shifty eyes*

frosty
04-18-2011, 11:21 PM
So we've gone from a Wii HD to a super all-in-one just short of blowjobs console at a very low price.

For $300, at today's hardware prices, a machine could be built that is considerably more powerful than the PS3. I never said it had to be cheap, I'd happily upgrade at $350-400. But the hardware is only part of the equation, they have to back it with a competitive multiplayer experience also.

The only thing about them building a Wii HD, they already got beat to the punch. That, and why? Wii is already doing so well, why not just jump into the next generation rather than trying to show up late to a party that ends in 20 minutes? This generation only has maybe 2 good years left in it, so unless Nintendo wants to be stuck competing against yesterday's consoles, they're going to need to raise the bar a notch.

The Wii worked because it did something no other console had done before it. Motion sensing. Now all 3 do it, and if they release Wii HD, that'd be all 4. It's gonna need another feature to carry it through, and as it seems from rumors told, slapping a screen on the controller doesn't seem like the golden ticket to me. I could be wrong, but I think they'd do better by starting the NEXT gen rather than trying to play catch up for this gen.

Viper
04-19-2011, 12:50 AM
http://www.01net.com/editorial/531787/lediteur-de-gta-iv-travaille-sur-la-prochaine-console-de-nintendo/

Site that leaked NGP details and N6 stuff now says June 2012 release with GTA V as launch title. Devs (including Rockstar) has supposedly had dev kits for months now.

Crazybone126
04-19-2011, 12:56 AM
http://www.01net.com/editorial/531787/lediteur-de-gta-iv-travaille-sur-la-prochaine-console-de-nintendo/

Site that leaked NGP details and N6 stuff now says June 2012 release with GTA V as launch title. Devs (including Rockstar) has supposedly had dev kits for months now.

Really? A summer release? I don't even buy games in the Summer time, simply because nothing comes out in Summer. Fall and Winter is where the action is.

But Nintendo HAS been talking with Rockstar for quite some time now and that's public knowledge.

frosty
04-19-2011, 12:56 AM
Stepping in the right direction with the software. Let's see online and hardware take shape now... That announcement can't come soon enough.

Viper
04-19-2011, 01:01 AM
Nothing says welcome back DMA Design (former member of the Nintendo Dream Team and now known as Rockstar North) than having GTA V as a lunch title.

IF that one proves legit (and with Nintendo's direction with 3rd party relations on the 3DS, it has plausibility), it alone would do a lot to entice other 3rd parties to jump aboard. And if they do improve the online facets to more modern standards, it's going to be one hell of a pugilistic battle next generation.

Crazybone126
04-19-2011, 01:07 AM
Nothing says welcome back DMA Design (former member of the Nintendo Dream Team and now known as Rockstar North) than having GTA V as a lunch title.

IF that one proves legit (and with Nintendo's direction with 3rd party relations on the 3DS, it has plausibility), it alone would do a lot to entice other 3rd parties to jump aboard. And if they do improve the online facets to more modern standards, it's going to be one hell of a pugilistic battle next generation.

If true. HELL YEAH, bring it on.

AC!D
04-19-2011, 01:19 AM
The question is, how can Nintendo actually compete with Live and PSN while making it completely original? They've been doing really cool stuff with the 3DS, but putting those features on a home console would just be irrelevant since it's not a mobile handheld device. In my opinion, when Xbox Live got the avatars, that was the blow to the face to Nintendo because, imo, that's what Nintendo's online should have been from the start. Mii's really didn't do much, and the Everybody Votes Channel and Check Mii Out Channel are literally unused by many. It's just rather ironic how a console that's main focal point was bringing people together and building a community had the most lackluster online system. Nintendo should have taken their own words for advice and applied it to their online, but they didn't.

Its too early to speculate because the interface might play a big part but for the time being i would say they should at least aim for feature parity. Then more importantly get good third party support which should be easy if the console is close in power to the PS3 and 360.

If they do those basics right then i think many gamers will embrace it. Remember one thing and that is that almost every single new multi platform game that gets announced for 360/PS3 in future ( Case in point GTA V ) will now also be announced for Wii HD. This is a huge game changer especially for core gamers and more importantly if the interface is out of this world it could end up being the de facto standard multi platform purchase for multi console gamers like myself. This is why online gaming on Nintendo's console needs to be on par with PSN and Live. They really dont need to innovate but rather just get the basics and functionality spot on day one. They can always add the innovative/experimental stuff later Like Sony tried with Home and MS tried with their Arcade room.

Viper
04-19-2011, 01:29 AM
I keep saying there are 2 things they needed to do.

1. Have a Direct3D enabled GPU.
2. Robust online experience.

There rest will take care of itself. We know they'll bring the 1st party action and will do something innovative. It's the above 2 factors that were wildcards.

frosty
04-19-2011, 05:46 AM
Not just Direct 3D enabled GPU, but a competent one that will give people reason to upgrade from what they already have.

Viper
04-19-2011, 06:04 AM
Matching the PS3 to be competent would be easy. Even a DDR2 based HD 4650 does that. You'd literally have to try hard not to surpass it. And if it's from the 5xxx or 6xxx series, then you get DX11 shaders which will exceed the PS3 a good bit. Even the weakest 6xxx series GPU (HD 6570) is running Crysis 2 at 1920 x 1080 at 30 fps.

Another reason I think they'll use a series 5xxx or newer generation is because of the new DX11 based game engines like UE3.5. You want talk about it having a step up above the PS3, there you go. Imagine a Nintendo console running an UE game engine that the PS3 can't. Might not be reason enough alone for many to jump ship but would certainly raise some eyebrows.

frosty
04-19-2011, 07:36 AM
That's the thing... it can't just raise eyebrows. Then they end up only getting a few sales from the curious, while the budget conscious core gamer realizes all the same games are coming to their box also (many of them), and the visuals are close enough. They need to make themselves a force to be reckoned with, something that will force the other 2 to show their hands.

Remember, the casuals will be saying "but we just bought that dang Wii like a year or two ago, why get another one?", while the hardcore will be saying "My PS3/360 is close enough, I don't care enough about some better looking shader effects/1080p/etc. enough to buy another console right now", which will especially be true of Nintendo doesn't come up with a feature for feature match to the online services PSN and XBL provide.

---------- Post added at 07:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:22 AM ----------

here we go... a new console generation is starting. time for speculation based on speculation. time for dropped jaws and crushed dreams, time for the gljvd's and makeitlookreal's to come around again...

Segitz
04-19-2011, 07:39 AM
Question on my end is... if they merely topple 360 and PS3 by a smaller margin, then where's the incentive to buy it? I mean, both 360 and PS3 (even more so) can basically do the same now. And if the Wii 2 is priced higher than PS3 (which is likely to get a price cut at GamesCom this year), then there's little reason to upgrade, unless you are a Mario and Zelda fanatic.

Unless... they can deliver another "great input device" heavy hitter... but that is just pure speculation.

frosty
04-19-2011, 07:42 AM
I think the input device craze will hit a wall soon. There's only so much you can alter with the tried and true control interfaces that will keep people satisfied. We've pressed buttons moved joysticks, waved wands, and flailed around like an idiot. what's left?

Theo
04-19-2011, 08:02 AM
I think the input device craze will hit a wall soon. There's only so much you can alter with the tried and true control interfaces that will keep people satisfied. We've pressed buttons moved joysticks, waved wands, and flailed around like an idiot. what's left?

Virtual reality? Yeah...I know I can keep dreaming :).

Seriously though, I have always had the best experiences in gaming with a simple good old controller or a even more classic keyboard and mouse combination. Some "short time good stuff" I have experienced with wii and with those pistols/guns you have with games like duck hunt, house of the dead and time crisis, but all those thing never have been the way to play games for me. That's why I'm hoping Nintendo to at least having the option to play games with a "normal" controller with it's next console.

Viper
04-19-2011, 08:37 AM
Virtual reality? Yeah...I know I can keep dreaming :).

Seriously though, I have always had the best experiences in gaming with a simple good old controller or a even more classic keyboard and mouse combination. Some "short time good stuff" I have experienced with wii and with those pistols/guns you have with games like duck hunt, house of the dead and time crisis, but all those thing never have been the way to play games for me. That's why I'm hoping Nintendo to at least having the option to play games with a "normal" controller with it's next console.
A lot of core type games on Wii allowed either GC controller or the Classic Controller or both (some games even came bundled with them). Depending on if they bring another new input method to the table next gen, I'm pretty certain they'll continue to offer both for many games.

masonite
04-19-2011, 09:12 AM
Woah... haven't been here for a while, looks like things are starting to ramp up :)

I reckon the main tightrope Ninty has to walk here is price and performance - if they can get the features and power up to a point where it's noticeably better than PS3/360, but keep the price point at a position where people can justify the upgrade, it'll sell well. It's just a matter of where that point is...

Ninty consoles have always been purely focused on games, so I don't know if i expect that to change too much - I don't expect to see expensive hardware decisions made in order to incorporate media centre functionality... plus, like it or not, Wii gamers are now their core audience - trying to change that will pose a risk, so they can't alienate them too much. I reckon Ninty will be trying to create a console that sits above Wii - not one that competes with it, or replaces it. It needs to be similar enough to get the fanbase to buy it, but different enough that the Wii stays on the shelf for the casuals. Maybe even make motion control a secondary option, and go with more traditional inputs to get the heavier gamers back? (I refuse to use the term "hardcore gamer" - playing deep games does not make one "hardcore") IMO that's their best bet, if they can pull it off.

Also, regarding putting a screen in the controller - why bother? They've got the best, most successful handhelds on the market, why not take a leaf out of Sony's book and use the two to boost sales of each other? a 3DS secondary screen with a 3D map for GTA V would be awesome, or it could take the place of in-game phone... With Ninty's massive share of the handheld market, It's a lot less risky and a much bigger drawcard to implement handheld functionality into the console than it ever was for Sony.

SadPanda
04-19-2011, 01:00 PM
GTA V N6 launch title = MUDER SIMULATOR (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/06/06/manhunt-2-on-wii-a-concern-for-florida-attorney-general/) from 07 all over again.

goku2057
04-19-2011, 02:31 PM
I think the input device craze will hit a wall soon. There's only so much you can alter with the tried and true control interfaces that will keep people satisfied. We've pressed buttons moved joysticks, waved wands, and flailed around like an idiot. what's left?

Still no sex simulation games.

Segitz
04-19-2011, 05:48 PM
Nothing says welcome back DMA Design (former member of the Nintendo Dream Team and now known as Rockstar North) than having GTA V as a lunch title.


Hum... I just reread that at Wikipedia. And I doubt that DMA really wants to work with Nintendo ever again^^ Their proposed title (Body Harvest) which was designated to be published by Nintendo underwent numerous delays because DMA had to redesign the game for Nintendo to appeal to the japanese market... later it was dropped by Nintendo and Midway released it.

Though, they still have a place in my heart because of Lemmings.


I keep saying there are 2 things they needed to do.

1. Have a Direct3D enabled GPU.
2. Robust online experience.

Why D3D? PS3 doesn't do it either. Actually most, if not all retail games don't use APIs to talk to the GPU, as these API calls make the software go slower than it could (primary reason why consoles have better graphics than comparable PCs).

They should use a "common" GPU. And that is either Nvidia or AMD. Going quirky will is becoming less and less feasible.

Viper
04-20-2011, 03:59 AM
Also, regarding putting a screen in the controller - why bother? They've got the best, most successful handhelds on the market, why not take a leaf out of Sony's book and use the two to boost sales of each other? a 3DS secondary screen with a 3D map for GTA V would be awesome, or it could take the place of in-game phone... With Ninty's massive share of the handheld market, It's a lot less risky and a much bigger drawcard to implement handheld functionality into the console than it ever was for Sony.Nintendo has already stated that the 3DS will work with their next console in some fashion. Maybe this is it. Not sure I like the idea of using the 3DS to control certain games on the TV but for some game types, it would kick ass.


Hum... I just reread that at Wikipedia. And I doubt that DMA really wants to work with Nintendo ever again^^ Their proposed title (Body Harvest) which was designated to be published by Nintendo underwent numerous delays because DMA had to redesign the game for Nintendo to appeal to the japanese market... later it was dropped by Nintendo and Midway released it.

Though, they still have a place in my heart because of Lemmings.



Why D3D? PS3 doesn't do it either. Actually most, if not all retail games don't use APIs to talk to the GPU, as these API calls make the software go slower than it could (primary reason why consoles have better graphics than comparable PCs).

They should use a "common" GPU. And that is either Nvidia or AMD. Going quirky will is becoming less and less feasible.

RE: DMA - I don't think that means much today given that even after Nintendo dropped the publishing role, DMA couldn't get the game how they wanted it anyway. That, and look at Square Enix. Square hated Nintendo so much during the PS1 days, they literally ridiculed the N64 in FFVII advertisements. They seem to work pretty damn well these days. And Rockstar North worked with 2 other Rockstar studios to put Manhunt 2 on Wii and GTA Chinatown Wars on DS. I think most of the bad blood is gone.

RE: D3D - The fact that the PS3 doesn't use D3D is one of the reasons some developers hated the system to start with. More to my point though was the need for modern programmable shaders (I've written it that way on other threads instead of saying D3D). OGL just the same. Just something to appease the developers in that regard.

---------- Post added at 11:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 PM ----------


GAF has supported this rumor based in the reputation of the poster.

Well analyze this.

It looks like Nintendo Technology Development, the Seattle based hardware group under Howard Cheng, has been quite busy researching and developing several of the technologies being used in Project Cafe. One of the more interesting features is their work on tracking systems and head-mounted stereoscopic displays along with CPU and GPU research and evaluation.

For those wondering what direction the system might take from a purely geometrical calculation standpoint. Some of the new team members at Nintendo Technology Development include one of the head engineers responsible for the PS3's Cell CPU and RSX GPU.

While the news is not indicative of the ultimate fire power the system may carry, it certainly is promising.

http://kyoto-report.blogspot.com/2011/04/ninja-courier_19.html

Take of that what you will.

Segitz
04-20-2011, 06:37 AM
RE: D3D - The fact that the PS3 doesn't use D3D is one of the reasons some developers hated the system to start with. More to my point though was the need for modern programmable shaders (I've written it that way on other threads instead of saying D3D). OGL just the same. Just something to appease the developers in that regard.

What?? Ok... First of all, with PS3, developers can use OpenGL... and, as I said, most, if not all big games don't use these APIs to gain speed, because the APIs drop performance. The bad performance of early PS3 games was NOT the lack of D3D or OGL. It was MUCH more because of PS3s lack of vertex processing capabilities. The early games used a LOT more polys than current games, which use a LOT more fragment shaders (pixel shaders). 360 doesn't have problem with that, because of it's unified shaders (all shaders can do both, fragment and vertex shading), PS3 has a fixed 1:3 ratio. The second thing is, nobody knew how to handle the SPUs and nobody had any code that could run efficiently on CELL either. Thirdly, the limited RAM (because of PS3s firmware taking away 96MB of RAM) and the split between GPU and local RAM posed additional problems.

So again... D3D OR OGL on consoles doesn't mean anything... it only makes sense on exchangeable hardware like PC, so there's an abstraction layer between the software and the hardware.

Viper
04-20-2011, 06:41 AM
I was referring to the developers that wanted it because they were familiar with using it. I know there were a lot of factors that played a role in the PS3's early developer troubles which is why I said it was just one of the reasons above.

Segitz
04-20-2011, 07:30 AM
Yes... but D3D OR OGL weren't one of those... that is what I wanted to say.

AC!D
04-20-2011, 10:59 AM
http://gameolosophy.com/consoles/wii/more-project-cafe-rumors/#ixzz1K0495cMH

Rumor Nuggets


- Square Enix, Capcom, Sega, Konami, Activision, Rockstar/Take Two, Electronic Arts, Namco and Ubisoft all have development kits.

- They each have at least one game in development for the Wii 2.
- Expect games to be coming to this system that you would never expect on a Nintendo console.

- Nintendo is kissing third party ****s with this console.

- The new Nintendo controller sounds more ridiculous on paper. When you actually see the thing, it makes a lot more sense from a design standard.

- Expect Nintendo to roll out the red carpet for third parties so their games don’t get overshadowed. Nintendo has been preaching to third parties that third parties won’t get screwed this time around, so if you’re expecting a ton of amazing first party games at launch…well…think again. Nintendo wants a launch that creates confidence in third parties again so expect very few first party games at launch similar to the 3DS.

- Star Fox is coming. I can’t say when. Very good chance that it WONT be at E3. I am hearing Star Fox is coming for the new Nintendo system, but it is very early in development.

- Nintendo solved every storage issue a third party could possibly have with the new console. I don’t know if it’s a harddrive or a different, cheaper way to store data.

- Nintendo revamping their WiiWare and virtual console services. I don’t think it will be called WiiWare anymore.

- Almost positive that we’ll be seeing Pikmin in some shape or form.

- A first person shooter that people love will be ported to the 3DS. I can’t say what game, but it’s popular among FPS gamers.

- Expect a crapload of 3DS love at this E3. The show will be wayyy more 3DS than Wii 2 (Project Cafe). 3DS stuff will be at least 60 percent of the E3 pre-show.

- Don’t listen to anyone who says new Nintendo console will launch by end of 2011. They are idiots. This holiday season is all about the 3DS and Nintendo’s E3 show will focus on that.

- Don’t expect many games to be shown at E3 for new Nintendo console, but expect all of the key features to be revealed.

- Nintendo is thinking about launching Zelda: Skyward Sword around the same time as Wii 2 since Wii 2 is backwards compatible with Wii 1 games. They want to follow the same strategy when they launched Pokemon Black/White when 3DS was coming out.

- I am 90 percent sure you will not see a Zelda: Skyward Sword port to the Wii 2. It will remain a Wii 1 game.

- Nintendo approached Hideo Kojima about the new Nintendo console. Nintendo and Hideo Kojima have a good relationship with each other.

- A Resident Evil game is in development for the new Nintendo system. I don’t know if Capcom is developing an RE spinoff or something part of the “main” Resident Evil series.

- Retrostudios started working on a Wii 2 game. It is NOT Metroid. Retro is done with Metroid.

The Zelda taking so long bit makes sense now. I also read somewhere that the new controller will have a sensor bar built into it allowing you to use your current Wiimotes to play games on the Project Cafe. This is a given obviously since we already know all games including MC only games are backwards compatibale. Also the online stuff being revamped sounds right on the money as we all predicted.

I also like the sound of Nintendo kissing third party dev ass. Viper defended Nintendo but the rest of us all knew they sucked at Third Party relations. Koj and Rockstar on board with Nintendo means big things!!! More games like MGS and less games like Conduit please!!!!

The more and more i read whether just rumours for now the more happy i am. This is the console i wanted Wii to be. Screw the Haters cause Project Cafe sounds awesome!!!

OmniStalgic
04-20-2011, 11:39 AM
^It truly does, and with two Japanese consoles in good relationships with the rest of the industry, we should never get a situation like a Tales of Symphonia game being an Xbox exclusive in the U.S when NO ONE BUYS JRPG FOR THAT CONSOLE:rant:

but, whatever...:yawn:

I think I've stated that all 3 companies will likely follow Nintendo in price structuring after the successful Wii, it looks like E3 will focus on two new handhelds more than console stuff, but for the first time I'm excited. Excited about the possibilities of these smaller devices, now being true equals to home platforms. I can only get giddy when thinking of all those great DQ/Fire Emblem etc...RPG's for DS branching out to 3DS, NGP, and Nintendo's new home console.

Take back the industry from MS with all this online connecting social play subscription shooter-box nonsense!!!:rotate: I want my Japanese devs back on top again!

SadPanda
04-20-2011, 01:04 PM
Can I just say i'm tired of hearing "how nintendo is courting 3rd party companies" i've heard this for years and yet we got stiffed on GC and Wii. Not saying they aren't spreading BS here... but i've got my doubts.

Segitz
04-20-2011, 06:04 PM
They can kiss as many third party asses as they want... as long as the sales stay as they are, there's no profit in it, unless Nintendo pays for the whole development...

AC!D
04-20-2011, 06:25 PM
They can kiss as many third party asses as they want... as long as the sales stay as they are, there's no profit in it, unless Nintendo pays for the whole development...

You are basing that on Wii conceptions.

Firstly why would it not be more profitable to port a Project Cafe version of MGS Rising if the consoles are similar in power? Its cheaper than creating an entirely new IP which is the problem Wii had because of its lack of power. That means developing MGS Rising on Wii would be more expensive than porting MGS Rising to Project Cafe. What does this mean? Greater profits for third parties imagine that.

Secondly there is a difference between courting High Voltage studios and Rockstar. You know this already so i wont bother to elaborate. They are going for the big fish this time and its easier because Project Cafe will be easier to port their games across to.

Thirdly the controller interface could improve third party IP's by design in which case publishers will only be happy to port their games across.

Fourthly what makes you think kissing ass doesnt mean paying for exclusive content or providing super extra special technical support like Sony have begun to do with bigger publishers like Valve?

Segitz
04-20-2011, 07:33 PM
Not just Wii... Gamecube wasn't that different... and probably N64... but those two weren't breaking 100mil in record time, so the comparison is skewed. And yes, it's correct that if such a system was to release now they could port three ways much more easily than they do it now. But PS3 and 360 won't be here for long anymore anyways... Then we'd get the same result like we have today, with Nintendos console severly underpowered to the other two.

Viper
04-20-2011, 09:55 PM
The Zelda taking so long bit makes sense now.
We'll still have that as a Wii exclusive this year.


I also like the sound of Nintendo kissing third party dev ass. Viper defended Nintendo but the rest of us all knew they sucked at Third Party relations. Koj and Rockstar on board with Nintendo means big things!!! More games like MGS and less games like Conduit please!!!!I've always said they need to work on their 3rd party relations. What I do defend them for is not flat out buying support. I prefer the support to be more organic because I think it makes the games better and the relationship stronger. Money is fleeting.



Can I just say i'm tired of hearing "how nintendo is courting 3rd party companies" i've heard this for years and yet we got stiffed on GC and Wii. Not saying they aren't spreading BS here... but i've got my doubts.

They did raise their 3rd party relations on Wii over the GC. It just wasn't much. The 3DS though is showing a much larger support from 3rd parties than either the GC or Wii ever received. And much better than DS had early on.

One of the ways Nintendo works with 3rd parties is by outsourcing their IP's to them. They do this instead of buying support. Like with Sega handling the Olympic Games stuff. Sega even got to publish those outside of Japan and they've turned out to be Sega's highest selling games of all time. Several other titles were handed off to 3rd parties as well. BUT, it's not translated into extra support from the 3rd party's own staple of IP's so they aren't gaining much by going that route.

With the new console, if the 3DS is an indication of how they are working with 3rd parties again and the rumors of programmable shaders and robust online infrastructure are true, I can see 3rd party relations easily exceeding that of the Wii.

herzogzwei1989
04-21-2011, 06:47 AM
Taking a look at the RSX GPixels (4.4) and comparing that to modern GPU's, even an HD 6570 tops it (5.2) and they don't even sell that on the market.

PS3's RSX GPU provides 4.0 GPixels, not 4.4. RSX is not running at 550 MHz, it's 500 MHz. Same as Xbox 360's Xenos GPU.

Viper
04-21-2011, 08:49 AM
Forgot all about that issue. Too many sites still listing 550 Mhz and 4.4 Gpixels.

frosty
04-21-2011, 01:43 PM
Xenos actually runs at 500mhz, RSX is 550. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSX_'Reality_Synthesizer')

Segitz
04-21-2011, 01:54 PM
It depends on who you believe... Sony announced 550 but later didn't specify the frequency anymore... many people believe it's 500 now... but there's are no hard numbers to prove either number correct.

herzogzwei1989
04-21-2011, 04:39 PM
Xenos actually runs at 500mhz, RSX is 550. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSX_'Reality_Synthesizer')


Wikipedia is wrong. Sony & Nvidia downclocked RSX from 550 MHz to 500 Mhz.

frosty
04-21-2011, 04:42 PM
The only people I can find claiming that are IGN, from an article that came out shortly after the PS3 came out. Every other source says 550mhz. I'm more inclined to believe the latter based on the evidence.

Edit: Upon further investigation, it appears the main core runs at 500, while the pixel shader ALU's run at 550mhz.

Viper
04-21-2011, 08:44 PM
More IGN rumors.


More details of Nintendo's forthcoming console, codenamed Project Cafe aka Wii 2, have been revealed to IGN, including the system's estimated pricing, release, console design, processing architecture, and name.

According to sources with knowledge of the project, Nintendo's next console could have a retail cost of anywhere between $350 and $400, and will ship from Taiwanese manufacturer, Foxconn, this October, putting the earliest possible retail release anywhere between mid-October and early November.

However, Nintendo could also opt to build up a sizable supply of the system and allocate more time for software and games development by launching in early 2012. Similarly, Nintendo could attempt to lower the retail price of the system with lower profit margins to make the price more alluring.

Since the manufacturing is taking place in Taiwan, the earthquakes and tsunami that hit Japan last month will not impact the console hardware as previously expected.


Additionally, IGN has learned that the system will be based on a revamped version of AMD's R700 GPU architecture, not AMD's Fusion technology as previously believed, which will, as previously reported, out perform the PlayStation 3's NVIDIA 7800GTX-based processor. Like the Xbox 360, the system's CPU will be a custom-built triple-core IBM PowerPC chipset, but the clocking speeds will be faster. The system will support 1080p output with the potential for stereoscopic 3D as well, though it has not been determined whether that will be a staple feature.

In terms of the design of the console itself, the overall size will be comparable to that of the original Xbox 360 and the system is likely to resemble a modernized version of the Super Nintendo Entertainment System (SNES).

As reported last week, it will indeed utilize controllers with integrated touchscreens and be capable of streaming games to each controller, though given the power of the system, could also feasibly provide a virtualized console for each individual unit.

Finally, Nintendo is considering naming the console Stream, though it is potentially one of several names currently being vetted by the company.

We contacted Nintendo representatives, but they declined to comment on "rumors or speculation."

AC!D
04-21-2011, 08:46 PM
I never expected it so soon if those rumours are correct. Anyways the sooner the better which probably gives us 99% confirmation that we will be play Skyward Sword in HD :)

frosty
04-21-2011, 09:05 PM
With a cost that high, they have room for some decent power under the hood. Assuming those controllers don't cost them too much. Let's just hope that 512MB wasn't true, or only was VRAM or something.

AC!D
04-21-2011, 09:14 PM
Kotaku claim they have confirmation that the controller does have a 6.2 inch touchscreen and a camera. They also claim that their industry contacts report that either existing or new Wiimotes will coexist with the new controllers. Some games may use a Wiimote while others will use the new controller. The camera will be used to take real world snaps and place them in game as an example so im guessing it acts as a sort of PSEye and can therefore also be used for augmented reality type gaming. This also means that the controller can be used instead of a sensor bar the same way Move uses the eye for better MC accuracy. This makes me think we will need to purchase new Wiimotes from scratch but thats just an assumption. Things are definitely getting interesting.

frosty
04-21-2011, 09:21 PM
Move can only use eye for better accuracy because it emits light from the ball on top... Wiimote has no such light emitting capability, so I don't see the camera being able to track it unless you snap some sort of light on the wiimote.

TimmyJ
04-21-2011, 09:34 PM
Finally, Nintendo is considering naming the console Stream, though it is potentially one of several names currently being vetted by the company.

"What console combination have you got?"
"WiiStream"

frosty
04-21-2011, 09:38 PM
I never thought about this... it very well could properly emulate wii titles allowing for resolution upgrades, etc.

Segitz
04-21-2011, 10:51 PM
I !! REALLY !! can't see the CPU clock beyond 3.2Ghz. I really can't.

frosty
04-22-2011, 01:15 AM
And here she is...

http://e-mpire.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=11949&d=1303434910

http://cache.static.tsavo.com/wordpress/uploads/2011/04/nintendo-project-cafe.jpg

GTAce
04-22-2011, 01:28 AM
Hey, a "normal" shaped controller, maybe I will finally be able to play a Nintendo console again, not to mention that this smells like an end of the "remote control pads". Yey!

AC!D
04-22-2011, 01:30 AM
Easy portability from Xbox 360 and PC yet no mention of PS3 :lol:

The controller does not look comfortable. I wish Sony and Nintendo would copy the ergonomics of the 360 controller.

GTAce
04-22-2011, 01:37 AM
By the way, I would love to be able to do that screen thing on the PS3, I often sit here, fucking bored and have to watch TV, this way I could play, while my dad watches TV. The idea is fantastic. This alone makes me want to buy it.

Dralor
04-22-2011, 03:32 AM
You can on the PS3 with the PSP however they didn't make it mandatory for PS3 games and relied on devs to support it if they wanted to so very little in the way of PS3 games support it. It coukld be another case of Sony coming first to market with a device like the PSEye yet are unable to market it to both consumers and devs properly to only see someone come around later and do it much better.

Also the Frosty the 350-400 doesn't necessitate that it should have significantly more headroom if the screen on the controller and all that is true. However these rumors keep getting odder and odder. no it is to be released this year and essentially an X360+? Syre it looks like it will catch Sony and MS by surprise but will an X360+ really cause they to scramble their plans? Then there is the whole possibility of getting off sequence with Sony and MS on console releases. It could be bad it could be good but either way it's risky.

frosty
04-22-2011, 04:50 AM
It's total power will depend on how much RAM it has. It has a GPU that obliterates both the PS3 and Xbox 360's. It's CPU is at least as powerful as 360's, and likely has a more modern and faster architecture (it's a custom built IBM 3 core power PC chip). I'd say the CPU will be close to Cell in many cases, but not all. But, slap a much more modern GPU in there with maybe 1GB of RAM, and then you have a system that will hands down beat anything on PS3 or 360.

Dralor
04-22-2011, 04:57 AM
I wouldn't say it obliterates the Xenos until we know what they go with from that gen and even then it could only be 2 to 4x times more powerful which is noticeable but not really obliteration. As you say though the main area that will help it stay at least in the ballpark of what Sony and MS release is RAM as long as it has reasonable bandwidth and isn't woefully small compared to what they put in their next gen systems ports short be easy even if it's like low vs high presets on Pc's.

Viper
04-22-2011, 05:01 AM
I never thought about this... it very well could properly emulate wii titles allowing for resolution upgrades, etc.

I was thinking about this as well. Dolphin on PC emulates most Wii titles pretty well and all the specs thus far suggest it could handle the task pretty easily.

AC!D
04-22-2011, 01:20 PM
Syre it looks like it will catch Sony and MS by surprise but will an X360+ really cause they to scramble their plans? Then there is the whole possibility of getting off sequence with Sony and MS on console releases. It could be bad it could be good but either way it's risky.

I dont know im starting to think there is method in this 5 year console cycle plan of Nintendos. The way tech advances with greater speed year by year the 10 year plan is actually a lot more risky these days if you ask me. In another 5 to 6 years im guessing MS and Sony will be in their second to third year next gen console cycle and Nintendo can again scout the competition and do better. Then its just a case of releasing a slightly more powerful next gen console with features that worked for competitors combined with their own spin and innovation. I mean lets face it if the Stream controller is for real and way too many industry sources have confirmed it for it not to be then its an evolution of remote play on PSP and onlive.

Also the the other big advantage then is that every new gen Nintendo can sell their console for profit at launch. It's all about the games though and Nintendo needs to kiss third party ass because based on their poor output on Wii from first party they need to do better on PC.

GTAce
04-22-2011, 02:20 PM
You can on the PS3 with the PSP however they didn't make it mandatory for PS3 games and relied on devs to support it if they wanted to so very little in the way of PS3 games support it.

Even if it would be mandatory, the PSP has only one "stick", expensive (for a controller replacement...) and for me, with my handicap, way too uncomfortable.

Fallax
04-22-2011, 03:26 PM
I dont know im starting to think there is method in this 5 year console cycle plan of Nintendos. The way tech advances with greater speed year by year the 10 year plan is actually a lot more risky these days if you ask me. In another 5 to 6 years im guessing MS and Sony will be in their second to third year next gen console cycle and Nintendo can again scout the competition and do better. Then its just a case of releasing a slightly more powerful next gen console with features that worked for competitors combined with their own spin and innovation. I mean lets face it if the Stream controller is for real and way too many industry sources have confirmed it for it not to be then its an evolution of remote play on PSP and onlive.

Also the the other big advantage then is that every new gen Nintendo can sell their console for profit at launch. It's all about the games though and Nintendo needs to kiss third party ass because based on their poor output on Wii from first party they need to do better on PC.

In part 3rd parties support was due to the limiting power the Wii had. Developers were forced to make new graphic engines just for the Wii. If u used the unreal engine then no Wii game for you. Thats not the only reason, sure, but it is one reason.

frosty
04-22-2011, 03:41 PM
not only that, it's control scheme. it didn't come with a way out of the box to play games the same way the other 2 did, you had to buy a classic controller for that and devs weren't about to bet on you owning one.

TEEDA
04-22-2011, 04:20 PM
http://download.gameblog.fr/images/news/ProjectCafe-Stream-Wii2-Mock-Up-IGN-480.jpg

OmniStalgic
04-22-2011, 04:23 PM
hmm....overall, I like it:headbang:

Cant' say I'll be there for launch, PS3 was my last "close to launch" purchase. but overall, I couldn't think of much more for expanding gaming that motion control isn't doing now. I can't really see where gaming is going besides more and more realistic, better looking, more complex games. For this reason, I haven't posted much in this thread and overall for next-gen i just havne't been that interested cuz PS3 has more than enough content I want to play. I think more simple and varied content to appease casuals and non-traditional gamers seems to be a bigger focus (and money maker) than expanding traditional gaming.

However, this idea for Cafe is just NICE! and it seems like Sony has this kind of functionality in mind with NGP+PS3. I dunno man, I just find it to be really cool:cool::cool:I feel the same way about the new Ninty console as the NGP! I want more!

Leedogg
04-22-2011, 04:33 PM
that reminds me of the dreamcast controller, with the screen built in.....

Viper
04-22-2011, 09:11 PM
that reminds me of the dreamcast controller, with the screen built in.....

A lot of people are noting the Dreamcast VMU similarities. But this would have much greater functionality while simultaneously making it even bulkier than the DC controller already was. Talk about give and take.

I'm still dubious as hell about it all though.

Segitz
04-22-2011, 09:21 PM
It's much more a PSP/NGP than the VCU of the DC... I mean, it seems to be like a fully fledged console... though it won't be compatible with DS games (dual screens)...

I am not sure... the only reason why this would make sense, is if these screens are the same as the 3DS... I mean, who'd buy an additional controller for twice or four times as much as they currently cost? They already are MUCH TOO FUCKING EXPENSIVE.

Segitz
04-22-2011, 09:21 PM
It's much more a PSP/NGP than the VCU of the DC... I mean, it seems to be like a fully fledged console... though it won't be compatible with DS games (dual screens)...

I am not sure... the only reason why this would make sense, is if these screens are the same as the 3DS... I mean, who'd buy an additional controller for twice or four times as much as they currently cost? They already are MUCH TOO FUCKING EXPENSIVE.

Viper
04-22-2011, 09:33 PM
Like I said before, Nintendo said the 3DS would communicate with their new console somehow. They said this several months ago (maybe near E3 last year).

Makes you go, "Hmmmmm..."

Segitz
04-22-2011, 09:53 PM
Sony said similar things about PSP and PS3 back then... nothing really happened. I am not sure if it would make stuff really better...

SadPanda
04-22-2011, 10:09 PM
You can say the same about the PS3 and SE phones.. or GC and GBA for that matter.

Dralor
04-22-2011, 11:19 PM
I dont know im starting to think there is method in this 5 year console cycle plan of Nintendos. The way tech advances with greater speed year by year the 10 year plan is actually a lot more risky these days if you ask me. In another 5 to 6 years im guessing MS and Sony will be in their second to third year next gen console cycle and Nintendo can again scout the competition and do better.

Actually it's the opposite the rate of advance is slowing down due to the slowing of process shrinks and the rising power leakage. So inherently longer console lives make sense if we want to maintain the current rate of increase between new consoles.

And Segitz Sony has had PSP/PS3 connectivity for years with remote play. However it never really took off with the PS3 because one it wasn't mandatory and two devs didn't want to allocate resources to it that they use for other things. If the PSP had sold well in the West there might of been a greater push for it though.

TimmyJ
04-23-2011, 01:03 AM
Plus there was a wildly different control scheme with the PSP that no PS3 game could feasibly use. Add in the inherent lag of the PSP's slow WiFi and you've got a pretty unattractive proposition.

Personally I'm rather dubious too: this seems too obvious as a new control scheme. Even though the screen could be used for some interesting applications, it seems like a considerable step back from the leap the GCN took to go to the Wii.

If this controller is legit, I can't imagine that Nintendo wouldn't have another controller of some sort too.

Viper
04-25-2011, 03:08 AM
The Project Cafe code name might just be real after all.

https://www.warioworld.com/
^That is Nintendo's software development group support website.


Now if you add a page to the end of the URL that doesn't match up with their web server, you get a nice 404 error.
Like this:
https://www.warioworld.com/sega
See, 404. Try a bunch of other words and you get a 404 error.

Now try:
https://www.warioworld.com/wii
Say, that works.

Now try:
https://www.warioworld.com/cafe

Hmmmmmm.....



Better still.....
https://www.warioworld.com/images/cafe/cafe_header.jpg

frosty
04-25-2011, 06:03 AM
... probably fake, unless this thing can power itself without a plug. That, or a mock up kinda like the ps3 slims that made their way into the wild prior to launch, but were nothing but hollow shells.

Viper
04-25-2011, 06:07 AM
Links aren't working but if they are the 2 shots I'm thinking they are, not sure I believe them.

Looks too much like an external HDD crossed with a modem. Not very Nintendo-ish. it certainly doesn't fit the rumors of it being nearly the size of the original X360 or the rumor about still B/C with the GC (no controller ports).

frosty
04-25-2011, 06:10 AM
It does fit with all of the previously leaked images of the console though. I fixed the images too. Could just be a proof of concept mock-up.

---------- Post added at 06:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:10 AM ----------

http://www.gamertagradio.com/new/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/2lkxova.jpg

Dralor
04-25-2011, 06:12 AM
I'm going to call fake on that sheerly due to lack of ventilation.

frosty
04-25-2011, 06:15 AM
I'm not thinking fake, I'm thinking a mock up. It's also too small, and has no disc slot despite the rumors of blu-ray support. plus, it's on... and isn't plugged in. if it's a fake, someone went through a hell of a lot of trouble. As for ventilation, how do you know it doesn't vent out of the back?

Viper
04-25-2011, 06:17 AM
That could just be the same mock up used for the original leaked images for all we know.

A leaked slide image I can see happening. But a leaked console pic from Nintendo prior to console unveiling? That just doesn't happen.

And I see no optical medium slot for GC or Wii titles to go along with the lack of GC controller ports. No SD slot.

Looks like someone in a plastic works company just made a quick mock up and snuck into the executives conference room and took 2 pics. Why not more pics? Why not more details?

frosty
04-25-2011, 06:23 AM
I think it's a mock up also, it doesn't have the silver lettering like is seen in the slide pic (on the ninty logo). It very well could be official though.

---------- Post added at 06:23 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:19 AM ----------

As for the disc slot, if the console were larger, that slot on the front would fit a disc in it. Another reason why I think this is a miniature scale mock up of the console. The office setting means someone probably snuck some pics of it at NOA headquarters or something. It's not the actual console, but I do believe that's what it'll look like. That curved panel looks like it could pop off to reveal some ports of some sort.

I don't think we'll see GCN ports on it though... why add extra cost to support a system 2 generations old when they could just release a USB adapter that had controller ports on it? I think it'll have a SD card slot, USB slots, and that's about it.

Viper
04-25-2011, 06:34 AM
The slide also has me curious. Most cameras these days wouldn't have out of focus areas in that pattern. I could see text on the far right losing focus because the focal point may be more to the left. But losing focus on the bottom side where the distance isn't much different from the top? And the front edge of the console doesn't seem to lose much focus top to bottom.

And of course....why just 1 slide image? The dude really just took 1 shot of the console and left everything else out?

frosty
04-25-2011, 06:38 AM
I've seen video projectors throw cameras off in similar fashion. the moire effect over the whole image lends it credibility. the doubling of the ninty logo in the bottom corner shows he may have been moving the camera while it was being exposed. as for why only one slide, maybe that was the only one they showed, or maybe there was a strict no camera policy that person was violating and didn't want to overdo it.

Viper
04-25-2011, 06:42 AM
Just remembered there was the slide of the controllers too.
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/9075/controllerprocaf.jpg

Which raises my skepticism level even higher.

frosty
04-25-2011, 06:50 AM
why would that raise your skepticism?

Viper
04-25-2011, 06:56 AM
Because I have a very hard time believing that will be their next generation controller. And that controller is associated with that console design. Red flag 1, gotta red flag them both.

frosty
04-25-2011, 08:48 AM
Well, that's the one that all the sites claiming to have seen it are describing. it's identical to the IGN mockup.

---------- Post added at 08:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:44 AM ----------

They just announced it. Playable at E3, releases 2012.

http://n4g.com/news/750627/nintendo-confirms-new-game-console

---------- Post added at 08:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:45 AM ----------

http://www.thesixthaxis.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/NintendoWiiSuccessorStatement.png

So it doesn't look like Wii will end up beating PS2's sales after all. It had a good run though, all things considered.

TimmyJ
04-25-2011, 09:54 AM
Just remembered there was the slide of the controllers too.
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/9075/controllerprocaf.jpg

Which raises my skepticism level even higher.

Especially the typo: "desing" rather than "design".

SadPanda
04-25-2011, 03:08 PM
The Project Cafe code name might just be real after all.

https://www.warioworld.com/
^That is Nintendo's software development group support website.


Now if you add a page to the end of the URL that doesn't match up with their web server, you get a nice 404 error.
Like this:
https://www.warioworld.com/sega
See, 404. Try a bunch of other words and you get a 404 error.

Now try:
https://www.warioworld.com/wii
Say, that works.

Now try:
https://www.warioworld.com/cafe

Hmmmmmm.....



Better still.....
https://www.warioworld.com/images/cafe/cafe_header.jpg

Isn't this the same website that you linked back before the DS reveal?

Black Dragon37
04-25-2011, 03:51 PM
I got two good names for this new console:

The Wii Wii

The Shiit


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUjh9Id6Id8&feature=related

Viper
04-25-2011, 04:48 PM
Isn't this the same website that you linked back before the DS reveal?

A good source then....a good source now.

SadPanda
04-25-2011, 05:16 PM
A good source then....a good source now.

thought it was familiar.

AC!D
05-06-2011, 08:42 PM
New Super Mario Bros Project Cafe game???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9wp6cz0A1o&feature=player_embedded

:lol:

Viper
05-07-2011, 01:21 AM
They should do an Animal Crossing video like that.

Crazybone126
05-07-2011, 01:24 AM
They should do an Animal Crossing video like that.

Animal Crossing would sound even more disgusting and crazy. Count me in!

Leedogg
05-19-2011, 10:56 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgjES1oOTlc&feature=player_embedded

I don't know if this is real or not. It's suppose to be video from a private developer conference.

Viper
05-19-2011, 11:44 PM
Saw it before and believe it to be fake.

If this was a developer invite conference then they would obviously know who filmed it by his seating position and he would be sued for breach of his signed non-disclosure agreement and probably have his company lose their licensing rights.

This is most likely a game development course with someone doing a presentation on next generation consoles.

Viper
05-22-2011, 06:38 AM
http://wii2blog.com/project-cafe-footage-is-definitely-fake/

Confirmed fake. And pretty close to what I said it may have been....a college course project.

Crazybone126
05-22-2011, 02:30 PM
http://wii2blog.com/project-cafe-footage-is-definitely-fake/

Confirmed fake. And pretty close to what I said it may have been....a college course project.

Had a feeling

frosty
05-31-2011, 04:49 PM
http://www.gamertagradio.com/new/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/projectcafe_specs.jpg

Now we're talking... could be fake, but this is a little more in the right direction if not.

jaxmkii
05-31-2011, 05:07 PM
wow now just make some SW with balls and im in!

frosty
05-31-2011, 05:16 PM
I'm finally seeing specs that would allow this to do things the current crop of consoles could not dream of doing.

Segitz
05-31-2011, 07:49 PM
Hmmm... if true then PS3 and 360 will be outclassed... but a considerable, but not too huge margin.

AC!D
05-31-2011, 08:37 PM
The tricky thing is whether 3rd parties will exploit that power. Im guessing this will be a similar scenario to PS3/360 multi plat games holding each other back but by a bigger margin in this case. Nintendo will hopefully make their first party games sing like Sony did.

Segitz
05-31-2011, 08:52 PM
As a PC gamer, I'd be happy if PC games took a step forward... currently I am playing AC2, which runs like crap on my PC (neither CPU nor GPU have full load, yet I only get between 30 (in-game) and 60 (cutscenes) Hz...no matter the settings (lowest settings at 800x600 gives me the same fps as 1920x1080@8xMSAA and highest settings) which sucks quite a bit)

The GPU is actually quite a bit more promising than I previously thought. It's based on the 4850, probably the Mobility Variant for lowered temperatures, though. (the Desktop components have a suffix, which is not present in above slide... Pro or XT). 800 Stream Processors (or about 160 if you want to compare it to Nvidia) is good, though current mid/high end PC parts start at over 1000 with an upgraded process and much higher clocks. Still, if true, it'll easily outperform PS360 at the same games and that at real 1080P.

It must be quite a large device, though looking at those specs. The GPU will, if using 55nm process (which is unlikely, though, but I can't tell), by itself already use some 100 Watts alone. The CPU might as well be something between 50 and 100 Watts, too. If they manage 32nm, which is likely, that might push the envelope down to 120 Watts overall, which is more than the initial PS3 Slim uses (about 100 Watts). And that is still quite a big device.

It seems strange for Nintendo to use these huge chips. I mean RV770 is a 1 billion transistor part. That isn't cheap. And if this really is true, than this device will have to retail for at least 299€, if not more for Nintendo to make money day one... I'd predict more than that, even.

Additionally it has a BDROM drive (a bit more expensive than DVD ROM), an HDD (basically adding 30€ to the baseline already)

AC!D
05-31-2011, 09:04 PM
As a PC gamer, I'd be happy if PC games took a step forward... currently I am playing AC2, which runs like crap on my PC (neither CPU nor GPU have full load, yet I only get between 30 (in-game) and 60 (cutscenes) Hz...no matter the settings (lowest settings at 800x600 gives me the same fps as 1920x1080@8xMSAA and highest settings) which sucks quite a bit)


I think thats just more to do with what a shitty publiser Ubisoft have become this gen in general. I've lost interest in nearly all their franchises except Assassins Creed which doesnt exactly run perfectly on console either with the crappy tearing. Ghost Recon got delayed again and again so they could come up with Ghost Recon Kinect i mean seriously?

JasonXe
05-31-2011, 10:35 PM
Wolf, fox..................SSSSSSNNNNNNNAAAAAAAAKKKKKKKK KKKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE :-D /random

jaxmkii
06-01-2011, 01:06 PM
this could kick off a new HP war... and that is exciting.

Crazybone126
06-01-2011, 01:43 PM
this could kick off a new HP war... and that is exciting.

HP?

Whatever it is, who cares. I'm so tired of hearing about "gaming wars." They're dumb, pointless, and only serve the purpose to the agendas of dirty journalists who want views on their sites. There is no gaming war, and there will never be a gaming war. It's just as irritating as people saying, "Who's going to win E3?" When did an exhibition become a competition?

Black Dragon37
06-01-2011, 01:55 PM
HP?

Whatever it is, who cares. I'm so tired of hearing about "gaming wars." They're dumb, pointless, and only serve the purpose to the agendas of dirty journalists who want views on their sites. There is no gaming war, and there will never be a gaming war. It's just as irritating as people saying, "Who's going to win E3?" When did an exhibition become a competition?Welcome to Competition 101.

Competition is needed so that the consumer gets the best possible deals. The "why don't we all just get along" principle is bullshit unless it benefits businesses and consumers better than competition.

Crazybone126
06-01-2011, 02:03 PM
Welcome to Competition 101.

Competition is needed so that the consumer gets the best possible deals. The "why don't we all just get along" principle is bullshit unless it benefits businesses and consumers better than competition.

If that were the case, I don't think for the past half decade, Nintendo would distance themselves so far from their competition (basically, became their own competition) and still come out on top with the most hardware sales (if this "war" is about hardware sales).

Black Dragon37
06-01-2011, 02:06 PM
And yet, all 3 sell gaming consoles.

Who they were targeting may be a little different, but it's still direct competition.

Fallax
06-03-2011, 04:38 AM
And yet, all 3 sell gaming consoles.

Who they were targeting may be a little different, but it's still direct competition.

I do agree but most people don't. Nintendo, if you look at it that way, has won this generation of home console wars. Nintendo has sold 70 million units world wide and shipped 80 million. Xbox is 20 million behind UNITS SOLD. If you look at that alone, Nintendo has won and MS and Sony failed, right?

Wrong. Hardcore gamers go for the other two systems, while most people who bought a Wii bought it for Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Fit and so on. So Nintendo failed in the hardcore audience, but did well overall in sales. Which is still a good thing, but thats why there is a distention.

frosty
06-05-2011, 06:02 PM
Rumor roundup:


The Controller:
Nintendo have been keeping this really quiet and have only given developers controller prototypes to start designing games. However, the final controller build with all the features have only been given to Nintendo 1st and 2nd party developers for now.
Nintendo had planned on inserting a screen on the controller back when the Gamecube was in development, but opted out due to technology not being advanced enough to be functional
The controller that’s been given to developers has a large 5.7inch hd (960x640pixel) screen, 2 analogue sticks, 4 face buttons, 3 middle buttons (select/home/start in that order), 2 shoulder buttons and 2 triggers.
The triggers aren’t as deep as the 360’s triggers, but have plenty of push
The big thing about the screen is that it’s a multi-touch screen, contains it’s own battery and is detachable from the controller unit
The screen when detached contains its own memory so developers can store data on it, so gamers can play whatever the developer designs for the screen-only use
When the screen is attached to the controller it works by streaming content directly from the console
Nintendo are giving developers ideas other than just having it function as a quick menu screen for games while attached, or as a simple tamagochi-like mini-game when detached
The controller contains a gyroscope, but motion controls isn’t the focus of the controller like it was for the Wii
Games:
Nintendo will release a Mario platformer as a launch title which hasn’t been done since the N64.
The Mario platformer looks to be the spiritual successor to Mario 64.
Gamefreak and EAD are hard at work developing a Pokemon online RPG.
The Pokemon RPG is not an MMO, but does have a large online emphasis and will be Nintendo’s flagship title when showing off the online capabilities of the console.
There will be at least one new IP Nintendo will reveal at E3.
Nintendo is working on a new Zelda, but didn’t reveal anything to developers.
Other:
Some developers have had the Wii 2 dev kit for going on 2 years now. When the Wii 2 is released in late, that’s 3 years to develop games on.
Because of such generous development time, Nintendo have pushed 3rd parties to develop high quality games to be released at or near launch.
Nintendo have sourced an external company to develop their online network, which the developer has commented, surpasses both the PS3 and 360 in terms of speed and functionality. (They have a chance of winning another console gen if they get this right!)
Nintendo is pushing for the console to be online 24/7 and have seamless online integration with many of their games
Friend codes are confirmed to be gone
Nintendo has been toying with the idea of a game where the main character is your Mii
Nintendo will be pushing their Pokemon RPG to showcase their online network
Rockstar are supposedly hard at work in bringing on of their “most popular” titles to the console.

Segitz
06-05-2011, 06:33 PM
Hm... I am not sure, about the bolded part. If Steam keeps its momentum, PC gaming will take off again, especially in the US, where it always was sort of an ugly stepchild (less so here in good old...). Their pace in adding functionality is not bad, and I doubt any console maker can keep up with them. Valve isn't bound to specific hardware or constraints. They just "do".

frosty
06-05-2011, 06:54 PM
pc gaming will never take off as well as consoles. ever. it's simply the convenience of being able to game in your living room, relaxed on your couch, with a wireless controller on a closed system that will run any game you put in it at it's optimal setting for your system... PC gaming is too inconvenient and complicated for the general public to ever openly embrace it.

as for steam... if nintendo were to contact a third party to design their online network, who do you think they'd pick? someone who already has experience developing a successful online platform seems like the logical choice to me.

AC!D
06-05-2011, 06:59 PM
I still dont understand this new controller concept. Everyone seems to point towards a touchscreen controller with a lot of DS functionality and streaming so how on earth are they going to be able to charge a decent price for them?

Black Dragon37
06-05-2011, 07:14 PM
That would be subsidised by the cheap materials they're using for the main console.

frosty
06-05-2011, 07:26 PM
the full wiimote package costs a pretty penny also, so it won't be a break in trend.

OmniStalgic
06-05-2011, 07:55 PM
I think Nintendo will find a way to get it in at $400...

Rumors rundown sounds awesome though...

Segitz
06-05-2011, 08:12 PM
I think Nintendo will find a way to get it in at $400...

Rumors rundown sounds awesome though...

400USD/€ with hardware that is just so overtaking PS360? Then they have to be quite confident that their controller will be a hit. If not, then it will be quite a money grave for them. I am no marketer OR economic guy... but I can't see that happening. If they really want to compete with Sony and Microsoft, then the price cannot be that high, no matter the controller.

AC!D
06-05-2011, 08:50 PM
the full wiimote package costs a pretty penny also, so it won't be a break in trend.

That cost was offset by cheap and old console hardware and if you compare the rumoured specs of the controller to the Wiimote it sounds like this new controller will be way more expensive than a Wiimote to produce.

Then factor in Nintendo's strategy of selling hardware at a profit and i can only come to one of either two conclusions and that is that the rumoured specs for the console and its controller are wrong or we have another very expensive console at launch on our hands like we did with the PS3. Clearly that strategy didnt work for Sony. Anyway all will be revealed soon enough i guess.

JasonXe
06-05-2011, 08:56 PM
pc gaming will never take off as well as consoles. ever.

Well how do you compare the two? Can you compare 12 million "active" WoW players to any console game? How about maplestory 60 million register users worldwide? PC gamers don't only play multiplatform games from consoles you know. Have anyone heard of league of legends? 1 mil + players playing when you log on. How about starcraft 2(currently 500k+ playing), tf2, HoN, or minecraft? A lot of the highly played games on pc aren't available on console. Usually those highly played games userbase outdo the console gamer userbase of triple A games by a vast majority.

Also, I play my pc games on my bed comfortably :-)

AC!D
06-05-2011, 09:07 PM
I guess you havent heard the news. Blizzard is hiring PS3 staff. I dont think Blizzards games will be exclusive for much longer over the coming years especially with Bobby Kotick in charge and PS4 + Nextbox on the horizon. Also if you are going to bring minecraft and games of that nature into the debate then we might aswell bring in mobile gaming on the console side.


Minecraft is a sandbox building indie video game written in Java originally by Swedish creator Markus "Notch" Persson and now by his company, Mojang, formed from the proceeds of the game. It was released on May 17, 2009, with a Beta on December 20, 2010. Official releases for iOS and Android are currently in development to be released later in 2011 along with a full version of the game.