Wii U Debate Thread

[frosty]

every user for every game you just mentioned doesn't even touch the 120 million + PS2 gamers out there, the 50 million ps3 gamers, the 53 million xbox 360 gamers, and the 80 million wii gamers. Console gaming is and always will be a bigger market because it can easily be integrated into the mainstream. PC's are too expensive and complicated. To play many PC games, you have to upgrade your rig at least every 3 years (unless you start gimping the settings), and those upgrades typically cost a minimum of $400 if not more. Add to that the fact that the vast majority of people don't even know how to upgrade a PC, so they'd have to buy a brand new computer to play those new games, and they're spending a lot more. Those costs prevent PC gaming from reaching outside of the niche market it has. There are definitely millions of PC gamers out there, not discounting that fact, but it's nowhere near where consoles are. Console games may not enjoy as many users as PC exclusives like WoW, but if you tally up the total number of players on all consoles games, you're going to end up with a lot more than PC, which is why developers put priority on consoles. That, and piracy is so much easier on PC.

[Segitz]

Come on... if we add up all gaming capable PC sales from 2000 to today, it should outsell all consoles combined. And by gaming capable, I mean something that runs stuff like Starcraft or some later stuff (games from 2000 and never). Basically all PCs sold today can easily run games like WoW and such. And that statistic would be just as skewed as the numbers you just listed.

[D3adcell]

Don't forget that digital sales aren't really tracked. The Sims 1 on PC sold 16 million units according to VG Chartz. WoW 12 million.

[frosty]

Halo 3 sold that much, GT has been known to rake in similar numbers. Money talks, and there is a very good reason you see developers putting their priorities in consoles. It's not because they don't make as much money on them...

[JasonXe]

every user for every game you just mentioned doesn't even touch the 120 million + PS2 gamers out there, the 50 million ps3 gamers, the 53 million xbox 360 gamers, and the 80 million wii gamers. Console gaming is and always will be a bigger market because it can easily be integrated into the mainstream.

How do you compare a mass amount of consoles to people playing pc games? O_o. Shouldn't it be a mass amount of consoles to a infinite amount of pc? Surely you're not implying that there are more consoles then PCs.


PC's are too expensive and complicated. To play many PC games, you have to upgrade your rig at least every 3 years (unless you start gimping the settings), and those upgrades typically cost a minimum of $400 if not more.

lol sounds like consoles. Every 5 years you need to upgrade and the cost is a minimally $400 buxs :-D. When you think about it, that is what we usually do with every electronic device.


There are definitely millions of PC gamers out there, not discounting that fact, but it's nowhere near where consoles are.

How do we define "pc gamer"? In simple terms it's a person who plays a game on the pc. You don't necessarily need a expensive computer to play a game on the pc. I can play farmsville or Robot Unicorn attack and consider it pc gaming.

The point im trying to make is that nearly everyone with a computer can possibly play a pc game. The amount of people who are playing a pc game "right now" is more than people who are playing on console at this very moment. Don't need statistics as it's common sense. Even if you take out web games, I can confidently bet there are more pc gamers actively playing a game then consoles gamers right now.

Hence leads to my original point. PC gaming is as well taken off, or as more then console gaming.

http://images.cafepress.com/product/219018956v_200x200_Front.jpg

[frosty]

How do you compare a mass amount of consoles to people playing pc games? O_o. Shouldn't it be a mass amount of consoles to a infinite amount of pc? Surely you're not implying that there are more consoles then PCs.

I'm willing to bet there are more consoles (currently supported) being played right now than there are PC's being used for gaming purposes (and I mean real games, not folks goofing off on a flash game at work). 80 million wii's, another 105 million PS3's/360's, and hundreds of millions of handhelds as well (they're consoles too, even if portable). Well over a quarter of a billion console gamers this generation alone, not even counting those still playing on their PS2's, GC's, etc...

I love gaming on my PC, but I also know it'll never get the market acceptance console gaming has for obvious reasons. As I said, if you need proof of it, money talks. Where is the money? Look at where the developers are putting the majority of their focus and you'll see. Consoles. Just go to E3 (as you have)... dominated by "the big 3". PC's taking a back seat to all the action. Ever see a press conference for a PC game or developer have hundreds of millions of people from all over the world scrambling to find live streams so they can catch a glimpse of it? "the big 3" do it every year.


lol sounds like consoles. Every 5 years you need to upgrade and the cost is a minimally $400 buxs . When you think about it, that is what we usually do with every electronic device.

5 years from now your PC won't be able to play just about any games without completely gimping the settings. You'll need to at least upgrade your GPU in another 3 years, and if you own a mid-range current GPU, even sooner. You'll still be able to game on your system in 5 years, but you won't get anywhere near the experience that those on new PC's will get. You won't get anywhere near the experience those on consoles will get.

[OmniStalgic]

Interesting debate, but I don't think either of you have proof or evidence to support facts, so there can be no black and white "right" answer.

I agree with Frosty though that the focus for "core" gaming is largely on consoles, and will probably always be that way. Consoles are a dedicated piece of technology to play video games, PC's are computers first, logic tells you that there are more people playing games on consoles than PC's, however, you have to factor in smaller games, old games that people never stop playing, (warcraft/starcraft/sims) versus how many people are still using there older consoles like PS2/N64 etc...

Concrete information for those numbers aren't really available, but I think for the big blockbuster games, it's safe to say consoles is where they will always live, there's just a ton of people that don't bother with buying multiple games for $60 and $50 and only buy one (WOW) and play forever, or only enjoy smaller gameplay experiences like Angry Birds or Flower, which you don't need a console for, as Indy games thrive quite well on PC's.

So, I guess, you guys are both right depending on what type of games we're talking about:shrug:

[frosty]

flower = console exclusive, i know you meant fl0w though. as for the proof, as I said, it's where the money is, which is where the developers are.

[JasonXe]

I had a long reply but it doesn't focus on my original point. That gaming on the PC has already taken off with hundred of millions people playing on the PC.


flower = console exclusive, i know you meant fl0w though. as for the proof, as I said, it's where the money is, which is where the developers are.

The "big devs" are all under the wing of the "big three". I don't expect Mario, Uncharted 3 or Gears 3 going to the PC. Although the third party studios that aren't under their wing are going to PC. MGS Rising, Rage, Ghost Recon, Battlefield 3, Tomb Raider, Batman, Darksiders II etc.. to name a few.

[solidsnakejej]

Pictures of Nintendo's crates

http://www.gamekyo.com/newsfr41398_les-caisses-de-la-nouvelle-console-de-nintendo-a-l-e3.html

http://i.imgur.com/KrEqb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/VbfFx.jpg

[SadPanda]

Pictures of Nintendo's crates


http://i.imgur.com/VbfFx.jpg

Introducting the Nintendo Chop-off-your-hands!

Kill your friends and family with this innovative new interface!

[Raitei]

So, I'm definitely interested, but resistive screen is lame

[JasonXe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_pUXJYZtCA&feature=player_embedded#at=14

In a wide-ranging interview with Kotaku regarding the new Wii U console, one of Nintendo's chief game designers, Katsuya Eguchi, confirmed that the system's proprietary disc format will hold 25 Gigabytes of data.

[Nate]

^LMFAO. I LOVE Kung Pow, freakin' hilarious. Me and a few friends are gonna have fun with this one when we own the console.

[Viper]

Well, given that most of them were farmed out to external developers, we probably shouldn't have expected anything else.

As development moves into in-house work like PS3/X360 is now, we'll see much better efforts. Get the game engines up to snuff will help too. They've been working on UE3 and the MW game engine for PS3 for years and they still have issues.


And Europe? America just beta tested the launch servers, firmware, OS and features for you. You're welcome.

[solidsnakejej]

As development moves into in-house work like PS3/X360 is now, we'll see much better efforts. Get the game engines up to snuff will help too. They've been working on UE3 and the MW game engine for PS3 for years and they still have issues.

Will they? Most studios right now are transitioning to new stronger consoles and creating engines and tools for those will they also spend time making a lesser engine and downgrade tools to make Wii U games. That is the biggest question going forward. How far are we off from UE4 releasing and people transition to that? They've said that they were not likely to port it to Wii U already.

[Crazybone126]

In other news, indie developers don't have to pay Nintendo in order to patch their games. So basically, they can price their games whatever they please AND don't have to pay Nintendo in order to fix anything wrong with the games. Not sure if this applies to big AAA in-house developers though. Anyway, here's a quote from Frozenbyte's marketing manager, Mikael Haveri.


“We have the power to price our products as we please, with just some basic guidelines from the big guys. The step to this is purely from Nintendo’s side and they clearly see that [their] previous installments have not been up to par. We can set our own pricing and actually continuing on that by setting our own sales whenever we want. It is very close to what Apple and Steam are doing at the moment, and very indie friendly.”

“Simply put, they’ve told us that there are no basic payments for each patch (which were pretty high on most platforms) and that we can update our game almost as much as we want. For indie developers this is huge.”

[Viper]

Will they? Most studios right now are transitioning to new stronger consoles and creating engines and tools for those will they also spend time making a lesser engine and downgrade tools to make Wii U games. That is the biggest question going forward. How far are we off from UE4 releasing and people transition to that? They've said that they were not likely to port it to Wii U already.

Don't mean they won't either. They didn't port UE 2.5 to GC or Wii either but several 3rd parties did it themselves.

[Segitz]

The point of UE is, as far as I know, more than the renderer. The integrated build tools are just as important (and don't need to be ported). A "simple" renderer isn't hard to do (well... it is, but it isn't THAT hard). But they need to tailor it to the console it'll run on, and that needs people that really understand the hardware, which for WiiU can't really be the case now.

---------- Post added at 07:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:43 AM ----------

WiiU teardown

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6465/nintendo-wii-u-teardown

[AC!D]

I think not charging for patches is a bad move imo. Games are released so broken and buggy already these days and now it will just get worse. Each console should have a team that decides case by case. If it's a small issue with one or two little bugs give the developer a pass but if it's bad nail them. The nice thing about XBLA and PSN arcade games is that they ars usually very polished. This won't be the case on Wii U.

[Viper]

I think not charging for patches is a bad move imo. Games are released so broken and buggy already these days and now it will just get worse. Each console should have a team that decides case by case. If it's a small issue with one or two little bugs give the developer a pass but if it's bad nail them. The nice thing about XBLA and PSN arcade games is that they ars usually very polished. This won't be the case on Wii U.

The 3DS already has some of those loosened restrictions and its eShop titles of way higher quality than the DSi and Wii ever saw.

Steam seems to manage quite well with such an open policy as well.

[masteratt]

The best you can do is put faith in devs. This is similar to how much control should government have over people. Government = Manufacturers, People = Devs.

You just have to trust they are not bumbling idiots and know what they are doing. And if things go wrong, don't freakin' charge them to fix it. Most buggy games this gen came from Bethesda. A huge company so they don't care about fees, it only hurts the little guys.


We don't know in detail how these fees work anyway. I know some dev said it was some ridiculous price to get a patch out. But he might have been referring to the man hours he put in building that patch.
I am not so sure myself it's simple as "oh you want to submit a patch to your game? That'll be $40,000.".

[Viper]

Masteratt, I've read that it costs anywhere between $10,000 and $30,000 for the patch fees. This is not their own development costs but the fee they actually have to pay to the Sony and/or MS to get the game recertified and the patch applied.

I know of some devs were it was simply too expensive for them to do a patch so they were forced to leave a game killing bug in the game which pretty much killed off all future sales.

[OmniStalgic]

^The two guys who made SuperMeatBoy released with a game ending bug that made you start all the way over...didn't stop people from experiencing the game (which I've heard is awesome) They patched it shortly after, but they had a deal with MS, so I'm sure it was part of funding.

[Segitz]

The 3DS already has some of those loosened restrictions and its eShop titles of way higher quality than the DSi and Wii ever saw.

Steam seems to manage quite well with such an open policy as well.

But there are cases like Skyrim (launched without Steamworks support and needed a patch), Hotline Miami (broken from beginning to end) and others... not that it wouldn't happen consoles (Skyrim launched in much worse shape on consoles)... it just happens. I guess software quality has become better over time (better management, I suppose), but software is MUCH more complex today... so it's rather meh.

[Viper]

But there are cases like Skyrim (launched without Steamworks support and needed a patch), Hotline Miami (broken from beginning to end) and others... not that it wouldn't happen consoles (Skyrim launched in much worse shape on consoles)... it just happens. I guess software quality has become better over time (better management, I suppose), but software is MUCH more complex today... so it's rather meh.

I agree but I was replying to AC!D who was claiming that the open policy of no fee for patches and updates would create a mass influx of junk compared to PSN and XBLA that use the fee as a filter to weed out the junk.

3DS has a more open policy than Wii and DSi did but fewer junk compared to both.

I'm just trying to say that a more open policy doesn't mean everything will be junk now.

[Segitz]

I am not sure how similar those two CPUs are... WiiUs CPU is downright tiny (and probably one of the main reasons, the early launch ports don't run well, coupled with the abysmal RAM bandwidth, which should be offset by the EDRAM though). Both use a similar (or the same) ISA. But other than that?

[AC!D]

Oh boy more bad news :( http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1687689/wii_u_has_a_horrible_slow_cpu_says_metro_last_ligh t_dev.html

[Viper]

So their team size is too small (they can barely add the PS3 version) to look at how to properly utilize the Wii U's CPU?

I'm really getting sick and tired of these bullshit headlines designed to do nothing but start shit.

[Segitz]

I'm sick and tired of media that don't use their damn heads when writing reports. Just like the whole 5 GB update fiasco. Not only is it actually under 1 GB but it's not even stored on the user's 8 GB/32 GB memory space like they claimed.

So... it's just downloaded and then vanishes? There is no other ROMs on the console, beside the 8GB or 32GB. Well... the 8GB reserves ~5GB for the system, and the patch is probably just applied to the files therein, so it doesn't "take away" any more space (just as on PS3)... but where else would it go?

[Viper]

I'll have to look for it again but I read it last night.

Ok, the article has edited that part. And it does wall off 4.2 GB's for system use. I can't imagine the OS needing that much space. Reminds me of the 1 GB of RAM dedicated to the OS. Probably will shrink over time and the amounts today are just a default starting point.


I did find something out that's rather...odd. Nintendo says you can run Wii U games off of the SD card but you can bypass that with a USB adapter. It then treats the SD card as it would any external HDD. Makes sense when you look at it that way. I assume they don't want games put on SD cards as a piracy prevention measure because I can't think of any other valid reason. Though they could be thinking that transfer speed is a problem since many cards don't read as fast as the disc drive itself does.

[Segitz]

Well... with dvd drives reading at maximum speed, maybe (which isn't really the case most of the time). Random reads however should be exponentially faster with the SD card. But... really SD cards for piracy prevention? You can access the data stored on those devices easier than an HDD (MMC block devices on linux can be read directly via the kernel, USB hdds need additional work, but not much).

They should just encrypt the data with a private key... and be done with it... though that is a security problem (as once hacked, you can sign your own files and run pirated games). Can't see why there'd be a difference with an SDCard, though.

[Viper]

No, I'm saying they are trying to prevent piracy by not allowing games on the SD. We are in agreement there.

[Segitz]

Ah... so I misunderstood you... yeah well... Sony doesn't really make sense to me, though... I mean, they used standard HDDs inside the console, yet don't allow external HDDs to do the same. Ah well... my PS3 now has a 500GB hdd (which is mandatory for PSN+^^)

[Segitz]

I thought Nintendo said that Wii games will not be upscaled on Wii U?

http://m.computerandvideogames.com/379590/wii-u-upscales-original-wii-games-to-hd/

I guess it was "lost in translation"... upscaling yes, but not "uprezzing" as people put it. As in, it's still rendered at native Wii resolution, but WiiU scales the output up to 1080P, depending on your setting.

---------- Post added at 11:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 PM ----------


Also, I wish Nintendo wouldn't be so cheap and just license a surround tech from Dolby or DTS. My receiver can handle LPCM great but I figured they would have licensed a surround codec this time around.

Why would you want that? Shouldn't make a difference in the way it sounds. At least when using the lossless compressions.

[Viper]

Remember how the Wii U is being sold at a loss? Well that loss can't be more than about $20-$30 per unit. Nintendo just stated that a single software purchase (1st or 3rd party) is enough to re-balance that consumer into a profit rather than a loss.

This means the cut Nintendo takes per sale must be higher than the loss on the Wii U.


With pre-orders alone already creating a 2.4 tie ratio before the console even launched, they've already moved into overall profitability. And with a projected 5.5 tie ratio by the end of March, they should be doing very well. Even possibly making profit directly on the Wii U unit itself by that point.

Now if the Yen grows even stronger next year, as some predict it might, then that all changes.

[BahnNZ]

Kiwi launch in 1 week, short answer: F**k no. First console launch I've missed since... Let me think... Well I didn't buy an Atari VCS at launch.

The promise: Good quality exclusives and current generation games at 1080p. So not really a next generation console but good fun until the real next gen comes along. Will buy. Like a 360 on steroids. Good s**t.
The reality: Can't run games designed for a 7 year old console due to crippled CPU and slow memory. Accounts tied to console. Terrible loading times for the first time on a Nintendo console ever. No good fresh exclusive games available at launch. Big attraction is New Super Mario Bros 1.5. Pad crippled by a 1500mAh battery, two hours it's out. Everything takes too long, leaving a game, system settings. It's no fun.

Tech specs are mind boggling. Shared Video/Main RAM runs at what, 12GB/sec, almost half the speed of a PS3. 192GB/sec on my GTX680 on my PC. :)

Complete embarrassment.

Good memories of the PS3 an 360 launch man. Resistance and COD2 and Kameo blowing away my PS2 and XBox. This is just horrible. Would have been so easy to make a 360 on steroids. Just... Horrible. Had the lowest expectations ever, and got called a troll for having them. Well below my expectations. Nintendo just don't care.

If PS4 or 720 are like this I'm going PC exclusive. But I imagine they will be pretty good, and here before we know it. 12 months will fly by.

[GTAce]

Feeling exactly the same.

[AC!D]

For me it is different this time because current gen games still look great and Nintendo is finally HD. I know there will be some gems on Wii U so i am not too worried. I won't be tearing my hair out like i did with Wii.

[zero 7]

if your account is tied to one console and your wii u breaks and needs replaced i guess you are fucked there then ?

Regardless i'm getting mine launch day because i'm such a sucker for buying consoles at launch

[Viper]

if your account is tied to one console and your wii u breaks and needs replaced i guess you are fucked there then ?

Regardless i'm getting mine launch day because i'm such a sucker for buying consoles at launch

I've already gone over this.


No, you are not fucked. Contact Nintendo and they'll transfer.

They also have a system in the works to allow manual user transfers.

[BahnNZ]

Fucked in so many ways. Quite liking those PS3 consoles, so I bought one for the living room, one for the games room. If I had done the same with Wii U I'd be buggered. Real dick move from Nintendo. Sheer greed. Your account must and should live in the cloud. It's 2012 folks. Hardware comes and goes, the cloud is forever.

It's the four game rule. If you don't like the tech of the console, and why would you, 4 fresh AAA games you actually like and you should pick one up.

So I'll get one in 4 years or so, Nintendo seem to do 1 AAA game I like every year. Although it's so slow it may be running on an emulator by then.

Bought a Nexus 7 and an iPad 4 instead. They iz teh awesome. Actual good well designed pieces of tech you'd be proud to own. Apple kicking ass with the A6X. N7 cheap and cool. Got nothing but pity for anyone who picks this as their main games console. Stuck with this for the next 6 years.

Bring on that PS4 and 720 son.

[Viper]

BahnNZ, they actually have a 512 MB cloud save system coming early next year. The company they've outsourced it to (Mozy, Inc (http://mozy.com/)) simply didn't have it ready in time for launch.

Want to know how you can do system transfers and mutli-console account use, there you go.

[BahnNZ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RBQG8As7Rs

Wii U hacked on launch day. Running home-brew + gamecube games

[Viper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RBQG8As7Rs

Wii U hacked on launch day. Running home-brew + gamecube games

No, the sandboxed Wii portion of the console was hacked. Technically, it's just the exact same exploit used on the Wii itself.

This is no different than the 3DS running in DS mode still having the old DS exploits.


Both the Wii U and 3DS sandbox themselves to run in Wii and DS mode respectively. This allows for 100% B/C but allows opens up all the same exploits of the original console.

But the higher functions of the Wii U and 3DS are untouchable via those exploits so neither console has technically been hacked yet.




And I have to ask but are you intentionally trying to shit on the Wii U as much as you can or is this just coincidental?

[Crazybone126]

Well, let's not forget he was doing this well before it even launched. Don't know why Nintendo gets castrated for having a shaky launch.

[Segitz]

BahnNZ, they actually have a 512 MB cloud save system coming early next year. The company they've outsourced it to (Mozy, Inc (http://mozy.com/)) simply didn't have it ready in time for launch.

Want to know how you can do system transfers and mutli-console account use, there you go.

Doesn't really help you now, does it? Although to be fair, PS3 on launch was also quite miserable (but the account wasn't strictly bound to the console you connected it to, first).

[BahnNZ]

Honest opinions. My genuine feeling. If PS4 or 720 turn out to be trash I'll be completely honest too.

My disappointment is very widely felt among Nintendo fans.

[OmniStalgic]

Played New Super Mario Bros U yesterday at Old Navy. Good to see Nintendo in HD finally! Probably won't get one till next holiday season, guaranteed to be cheaper going from Nintendo's track record and will likely have more first party standout titles.

Will take a wait-n-see approach with this one just like I did Vita, but Nintendo's Zelda/Metroid/Donkey Kong/Kirby/Smash Brothers/Starfox/Kid Icarus and Monster Hunter 4 should be plenty of reasons to pick it up with any one of those franchises debuts. Getting it purely for the exclusives, and because I know I'm not going to be done with my PS3 until late 2014 maybe. So I can pick up my sub-system in the middle. If its not your main console, i find all the specs/early launch stuff kinda irrelevant, I dunno why sites are trying to bash up, Nintendo seems like they are doing the exact same thing as Wii, just offering something different not meant to even compete power wise with the other two because they don't feel it necessary. And if software is just going to be shared between PS4/720 and StarWars1313 is what we can expect, I don't blame Nintendo for doing the Wii plan over again. It's putting new experiences into the industry. I'm just really interested in what Sony is doing. I think MS is just gonna push kinect 2.0.

[AC!D]

Star Wars and Watchdogs looked lame to me. I wouldn't be looking at those two games to give me any indication of what next gen will bring. Also as far as i understand Watchdogs is a current gen game.

[OmniStalgic]

graphically, I don't see how you can say they weren't impressive, especially the final fantasy demo, it was a step above anything we're currently playing on consoles. Had some nice draw distances, and beautiful particle effects.

[AC!D]

Graphically sure but the Star Wars dev team sucks so don't expect next gen gameplay. It looked like Uncharted to me. I am a big fan of Ubisoft Montreal but come on are you really going to call controlling the cameras to cause an accident amazing? Rockstar can patch that into GTA V. GTA V looks way more impressive and we know Rockstar won't BS us with the fake bullshots and vids like Ubisoft do .Do i even need to comment on Square? The prettier their games get the more the content suffers.


The only thing next gen i saw at E3 was that incredible AI in TLOU and the lifelike animation and acting in Beyond. Those games are current gen so imagine the possibilities when those kinds of developers get their hands on next gen tech. I get that you and ratt are defending the Wii U but there's no need to take a dump on PS3 and 360 when we haven't seen anything yet. A good CPU/GPU combo are more than pretty graphics.

[masteratt]

Not really defending as I am *this* close to cancelling my pre-order. More, give it time.


A good CPU/GPU are more than pretty graphics.
Other than the studios you already named, not for many other devs unfortunately. Hence why I don't think WiiU not having beef tech is going to hurt much.

I get the annoyance if you are a tech guy, but I really am not. I rarely comment on game tech unless it impresses greatly or damages the game greatly and both are not that common.

[AC!D]

I am fine with Wii U also and am 100% not cancelling my pre order but i just get so annoyed when ppl say Nintendo innovate while the rest focus on tech. MS as much as i dislike them gave us Xbox Live and the start of something (Kinect that could be great with a couple more revisions maybe next next gen when it works as originally advertised ). As for Sony who the hell here can tell me their indie initiatives on PSN and innovative retail games aren't inventive and out of this world? PS Plus? Remote Play which is basically the central theme of Wii U NO? Augmented reality? 3D? Tilt controls when they worked perfectly like in Flower. Blu Ray for content and the best sound in the industry? What about the new Sony pulse headset for Vita and PS3? I can't wait to get my hands on that after reading up on how it works. Maybe not all these things were successful but Sony sure do try and are more than just Cell and a GPU. Nintendo don't try even half as hard.

[Segitz]

I am fine with Wii U also and am 100% not cancelling my pre order but i just get so annoyed when ppl say Nintendo innovate while the rest focus on tech.

Thank you^^


MS as much as i dislike them gave us Xbox Live and the start of something (Kinect that could be great with a couple more revisions maybe next next gen when it works as originally advertised ). As for Sony who the hell here can tell me their indie initiatives on PSN and innovative retail games aren't inventive and out of this world? PS Plus? Remote Play which is basically the central theme of Wii U NO? Augmented reality? 3D? Tilt controls when they worked perfectly like in Flower. Blu Ray for content and the best sound in the industry? What about the new Sony pulse headset for Vita and PS3? I can't wait to get my hands on that after reading up on how it works. Maybe not all these things were successful but Sony sure do try and are more than just Cell and a GPU. Nintendo don't try even half as hard.

Also, looking besides the "surrounding", I think gameplay wise Sony doesn't have to hide either. No, they don't do niche stuff as often (but more than many other companies, especially with PSN), but even their full retail games aren't "bog standard", either. Little Big Planet, for example. That was a stroke of genius. Not that I am a huge player of that genre (not much into jump and run), or even Mod Nation Racer (the logical conclusion to LBP) and LBK. The crossplay stuff (although in its infancy) is also a great addition.

[D3adcell]

Not really defending as I am *this* close to cancelling my pre-order. More, give it time.


I'm waiting for a price drop and better games. They aren't selling nearly as fast as I thought they would and in fact I could have picked one up easily over this weekend. My store couldn't even get all the pre-order and wait list people to pick it up, many of them said they would wait on it. Which kind of makes me think, is it going to be like Vita and suffer until more games are out?

[masteratt]

No hardware deserves the treatment of VITA!

LONG LIVE VITA AND LONG LIVE WIIU!!!! Fuck it I am supporting everything anyone releases. I am sick of being negative about things that are created to entertain me. Leaving my pre-order in tact and I am going to love every second of WiiU.

[BahnNZ]

Ya, if there's hardware that needs championing and pimping I'll pimp Vita. What a superb bit of kit with as many good titles as you'd expect for a system out this long. Those guys need a break.

Meantime....

http://i48.tinypic.com/2yvs9ll.png

http://www.lensoftruth.com/heads-up-call-of-duty-black-ops-ii-analysis-wii-ups3xbox-360/

http://www.abload.de/img/wiiucod2aoug4.jpg

2005 360 > 2006 PS3 > the 2012 Wii U for Blops2. Disgraceful. Servers are empty too.

Liking everything whether it's good or bad is one way to go through life, like the people who tell me as long as a car gets them from A to B.... Pimping that cool shit (like Vita) and ignoring things that suck is a better way I think. And with that, I leave you fellas to Wii U.... Whole 6 years of sub-360 performance with a Windows Mobile 6.5 stylus interface... Paying 2012-2018 money for 2004 games. Hmmmm.... Enjoy... Seeya in 6 years...

[AC!D]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=137X2LcF-wM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Viper]

Ya, if there's hardware that needs championing and pimping I'll pimp Vita. What a superb bit of kit with as many good titles as you'd expect for a system out this long. Those guys need a break.

Meantime....

http://i48.tinypic.com/2yvs9ll.png

http://www.lensoftruth.com/heads-up-call-of-duty-black-ops-ii-analysis-wii-ups3xbox-360/

http://www.abload.de/img/wiiucod2aoug4.jpg

2005 360 > 2006 PS3 > the 2012 Wii U for Blops2. Disgraceful. Servers are empty too.
Stop cherry picking the shit out of the Wii U. I can pull up images from Lens Of Truth that show Wii U above both X360 and PS3 on BLOPS II. You are intentionally looking for the absolute worst possible comparisons to use in your debate and ignoring everything else. I'll post up my own images when I have more time.




Doesn't really help you now, does it? Although to be fair, PS3 on launch was also quite miserable (but the account wasn't strictly bound to the console you connected it to, first).

True, it doesn't help right now. But how many people honestly need a Wii U to Wii U transfer solution one week after launch? And yes, the PS3 didn't tied accounts to 1 console at the time but it can also be said that neither the PS3 nor X360 had all of their features available on day 1 either yet it's the Wii U that is getting shit on for not having everything on day 1.

If any of you needed to move your account from one console to another, then you'd have a complaint. Until then, you're bitching about an option you're not even going to need.

Console account sharing is a different matter and that indeed should be rectified as well though I don't expect to see that part change.

[masteratt]

you're bitching about an option you're not even going to need.

That's the theme of the internet.

"well i never used it, never will use it or ever planned to use it....BUT OMG IT'S NOT THERE WAAAAAAAAAAA!!"

Anything to whine about, the internet loves getting on it. Then when you call them out you get the "but it's the principlezz omg!!!" speech.

[BahnNZ]

Can't run games designed for hardware from SEVEN YEARS AGO is cherry picking? :) You gotta be kidding me. I can run through the every single third party game and compare it to every 360 version if you like, no cherry picking involved, it just doesn't have it under the hood. Want to read the developer comments from the Metro 2033 guys, are they part of this giant conspiracy too?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/7979408/Wii-U-CPU-is-horrible-slow


"Wii U has a horrible, slow CPU," 4A's chief technical officer Oles Shishkovtsov told NowGamer.

Metro publisher THQ's head of communications Huw Beynon was more diplomatic, explaining that his studio couldn't justify the effort required to make a Wii U version on par with those of other consoles.

"We had an early look at it, we thought we could probably do it, but in terms of the impact we would make on the overall quality of the game - potentially to its detriment - we just figured it wasn't worth pursuing at this time," he said.

"It's something we might return to. I really couldn't make any promises, though."

"Given the size of the team and compared to where we were last time, just developing for the Playstation 3 is a significant addition."

In September, Tecmo Koei producer Akihiro Suzuki claimed the Wii U had a slower CPU than the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360, which reduced the number of possible on-screen enemies as well as the frame rate in Warriors Orochi 3 Hyper.

Cherry picking my arse! It's the consensus that Wii U can't compete with 2005 hardware for third party games, let along the upcoming 2013 hardware. It's a train wreck.

Unbelievable, and unbelievable that anyone would defend this. Tell the truth and shame the devil.

[masteratt]

PS3 couldn't run 360 games properly for years. Is that weak hardware that can't keep up either? Simply the tools aren't there yet. I am not saying once they are WiiU is going to be some beast but it'll be able to somewhat keep up.

Also let me bring up the "nintendo doesn't give a shit about the power race" point again.

---------- Post added at 05:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:36 PM ----------

You guys are worst than the the 360bots that went around screaming doom and gloom on PS3 early in the years. This things has barely launched and apparently the tech isn't there and no game can run on it...OK.

[BahnNZ]

The developers aren't saying "As soon as the tools catch up, we'll be running games for 2005 hardware on this 2012 hardware" they're saying the hardware is just bad.

Again, I got called the troll for saying Wii U wasn't really a next generation console that could keep up with XBox 720 and PS4, console comes out, turns out it's not even truly a current generation console. Listen to the developers. Have to drop enemies onscreen, the CPU can't keep up with the AI.

Why buy a console that's outclassed by the hardware you ALREADY OWN? From seven years ago?

Now picture it competing with a new XBox 10 times faster than the 360. What a blood bath.

This is not an equivalent to PS3, lazy developers whining. The equivalent is PS3 comes out and can't run games from Xbox 1 and Gamecube, because the XBox and Gamecube have better CPUs. I'm sure if that happened you Nintendo boys would have been gentle with us Sony guys? :)

[zero 7]

At the end of the day who gives a fuck about hardware specs and graphics a console to me is something that keeps me happy for a few hours if it has awesome games then why does everything else matter so much man people are so fucking biased these days

[BahnNZ]

You have a lot of choices for your gaming dollar, and you can buy fresh original games on elegant powerful hardware.

Leave you boys to it I think. Why argue about something I'm never going to buy. Dishonoured is on sale on Steam.

[OmniStalgic]

Bahnz I agree with you to a certain extent, but I also think you're being a bit premature. No one is stating the Wii-U is going to look amazing once devs get there handle on it, but it will likely surpass PS3/360 even if only marginally. Worse things were said about PS3 shortly after it's launch, and we all know how that turned out.

Regardless of specs though, Wii offered something different enough to satisfy a lot of people, even if you think Nintendo is being half-asses in the hardware department. It's not as if the tablet itself is a cheap piece of crap, and every company exist to make a profit. Nintendo would rather focus on there software rather than hardware specs, they've been doing it since Gamecube, so I'm not sure why you were expecting anything different here:huh:

You are right about WiiU likely not comparing to 720/PS4, you are right if you said Nintendo will try the Wii approach again, anyone who were saying 720/PS4 will be THIS close to PS3/360 are not being reasonable. No one here I think would argue with those sentiments, simply put, you shouldn't really care that much.

Good games is good games...PSN/Xbla/Steam is proof of that, and that's why Wii-U fits. Many here have stated they'll get it later with more games, some are supporting it day one, some are not too interested. Wherever you stand on it, there's certainly room for WiiU to gamers. if nothing else, Wii-U is finite proof that software is still King. As they can release mid-tier spec hardware and still create fresh exciting games. And I grew up with Sony, I'm not biased at all towards Mario/Zelda because I was too young to serious game with SNES, so my attachment is certainly with Playstation. Even so, that friggin tablet gameplay is cool! That's really all gaming is about man...just have some fun with it. Regardless of specs, or how superior a Ipad or Nexus7 is to WiiU pad, or if 720 completely mops the floor with it in CPU/GPU. You can't play Mario on an Ipad....that's all it will ever come down to.

[BahnNZ]

Any tablet that has a resistive display would be defined as a cheap piece of crap, it's 2012, styluses went out with the Palm Pilot. That's before you talk about how much better the twin sticks feel on a 360 or PS3 pad compared to the Wii U pad. Any tablet with a two hour battery life would be considered a piece of crap too.

People are used to better on their iPads. You're not giving them anything novel. People can do better on their 360s with smart glass.

Sure you can't rescue the princess on an iPad, but after 30 years maybe it's time the stuck up b**ch got some security guards. Frankly at this point she's just getting kidnapped for the attention. :)

[Segitz]

Stop cherry picking the shit out of the Wii U. I can pull up images from Lens Of Truth that show Wii U above both X360 and PS3 on BLOPS II. You are intentionally looking for the absolute worst possible comparisons to use in your debate and ignoring everything else. I'll post up my own images when I have more time.

Well... I wouldn't necessarily call it cherry picking, when even the averages show a worse performance than PS3. Now, don't get me wrong, I was, and still am, saying that such a minute difference is irrelevant, BUT we are talking of a new console, released in 2012, which cannot, day one, easily beat out any other console out there, at a higher pricepoint. But, to be fair, those are early ports. On the other hand, it should easily be much faster, so that a sloppy port job (aka what we PC gamers get all the time) runs well on a higher end system. But I guess it doesn't matter. It simply ISN'T a high end system. It's a gimmicky console (just like Wii was). If that's a good sales argument remains to be seen. For Wii, it was.


Console account sharing is a different matter and that indeed should be rectified as well though I don't expect to see that part change.

It's not really about console sharing, imho. It's about principle. When I make ANY online account. No matter what. I can use that account on ANY system I want. Yes, some system might have to "disable" your old machines (PS3, Google Music, Itunes etc.), but they NEVER lock you down like this. It's simply unheard of. A lot of people have two consoles (one of the living room and another for somehwere else). They can't play their "own" games (downloaded) on both consoles. Fuck that. And I can only hope that this will be rectified peferctly (portable accounts, similar to 360 or PS3). ANYTHING less (I find PS360 already quite restrictive, being a PC gamer with Steam or even Origin) is unacceptable.

And yeah... I've never used my Steam account on several systems... OH SHIT, I DID? Yeah indeed. Oh, I do have 2 PS3s (well, I own one, my brother has another, and I often go to his place to play games, and I own more games than he does). Shit... another case closed. Oh, yeah, and I can access PSN from my PSP too (not that I do it, but I can).

THAT, Viper, is the problem. I can't do ANY of the things I do. I wouldn't lose a whole lot, but I would lose something.

[OmniStalgic]

Any tablet that has a resistive display would be defined as a cheap piece of crap, it's 2012, styluses went out with the Palm Pilot. That's before you talk about how much better the twin sticks feel on a 360 or PS3 pad compared to the Wii U pad. Any tablet with a two hour battery life would be considered a piece of crap too.

People are used to better on their iPads. You're not giving them anything novel. People can do better on their 360s with smart glass.

Sure you can't rescue the princess on an iPad, but after 30 years maybe it's time the stuck up b**ch got some security guards. Frankly at this point she's just getting kidnapped for the attention. :)Yet the 3DS with stylus is selling like crazy...So, obviously its still adequate enough for many people, and likely, so will the Wii-U pad. I'm not excusing Nintendo either, strong yen aside, they made a bunch with Wii/DS and I think they could have boosted the tech in Wii-U considerably, but you can still have a good time on it. And then you have the entire Wii audience to sell too, which just loves Nintendo franchises. Even if everyone got pretty sour with Nintendo, you'd always have the fans that by whatever they sell, gimmicky or not. So why would Nintendo push for the latest/greatest tech when fans just want there software franchises? I do think the tablet is less gimmicky than Wii though, simple games like platformers/RPG's that don't require a lot of dexterity seem like they will be pretty fun on Wiiu.

[Crazybone126]

Maybe Nintendo fans don't truly care how much of a powerhouse a console is *gasp*. They play video games for fun. That's always been the case. Unlike Sony and Microsoft, Nintendo actually KNOWS their audience. Notice how the biggest Nintendo supporters on this very website don't even care enough to partake in this very thread and argue about "Ermahgerd, Dem graffix!" They actually just go out and enjoy their lives and could care less what some video game company is doing because there's more important things to be taken care of first.

I have officially won this thread, and everybody can now, kindly, SHUT. THE FUCK. UP!!!

[masteratt]

You automatically lose a thread when you declare yourself the winner of it. Thems the rules bro :guns:


I do agree and echo your points though. NINTENDO FANS AND NINTENDO DON'T GIVE A FUCK IT CAN'T DO THIS SHADER OR THAT SHADER.

[Segitz]

Maybe Nintendo fans don't truly care how much of a powerhouse a console is *gasp*. They play video games for fun. That's always been the case. Unlike Sony and Microsoft, Nintendo actually KNOWS their audience.

Yeah... Sony really doesn't make games that I care for. Neither does MS. Also, I really can see their ignorance in their hardware. I really want "low powered" hardware. I really do. What was I thinking in getting a PS3 instead of a Wii, where I couldn't play Uncharted, Gran Turismo or God of War.

Nintendo knows their core... which isn't THAT big, as can be seen with N64 and Gamecube. They catered to them perfectly. And I applaud them for it. But the mass market is a COMPLETELY different beast. It's pure "luck", who wins. The zeitgeist, so to speak. N64 lost against PS1, because of many factors, the biggest (imho) was CDROM. PS2 was won by Sony, because they were first (at least that's how I see it), and they had the PS1 before. Nintendo won Wii, because of the controllers. None of these factors are "the console" itself, just small parts of it. I always pointed out in the recent past, that I can't make out what WiiU will actually sell. It's an unrolled die. For all it's worth, it could sell gangbusters and drive MS and Sony into the abyss. It could go the other way, completely, too. Neither of which is (now) determined by the hardware speed. But I can tell you that Nintendo will not garner any hardcore crowds around the WiiU, because it's simply not a step up from PS360. Why would anyone buy Blops2 on WiiU, when it runs better on either PS3 or 360 AND have a thousand times more people playing online? That's simply no argument here.

[curryking1]

No hardware deserves the treatment of VITA!

LONG LIVE VITA AND LONG LIVE WIIU!!!! Fuck it I am supporting everything anyone releases. I am sick of being negative about things that are created to entertain me. Leaving my pre-order in tact and I am going to love every second of WiiU.

Stop being so positive!

[OmniStalgic]

Maybe Nintendo fans don't truly care how much of a powerhouse a console is *gasp*. They play video games for fun. That's always been the case. Unlike Sony and Microsoft, Nintendo actually KNOWS their audience. Notice how the biggest Nintendo supporters on this very website don't even care enough to partake in this very thread and argue about "Ermahgerd, Dem graffix!" They actually just go out and enjoy their lives and could care less what some video game company is doing because there's more important things to be taken care of first.

I have officially won this thread, and everybody can now, kindly, SHUT. THE FUCK. UP!!!it's a holiday weekend man, the important things are already taken care of :smirk:

It's fun sometimes to join in just for the heck of it. Disagree about Sony or MS knowing there fanbase though, MS pushed to the friggin Max for Halo games to be released when they wanted it, and snatch up Gears pretty early as well, they know what good shooters can do for there console and how users view Live. And Sony's "make something for everyone" is a big part of why they have loyal fans as well. I would also make a side-note that Nintendo fans are very vocal on other sites as being "the originator" of everything, and a ton of there sales come from kids who have nothing to say as far as forums/comments on the internet go, so it's not really fair or accurate to label any group of fans really, different every site you visit. Whether you care or not though, I think it can be easily stated, Nintendo could have went a bit harder in the hardware design. Your gonna get backlash for that, PS3's price-point and no games was even worse though...so this isn't so bad

[Crazybone126]

The fact I have two mentions means what I said went over people's heads. So I'll say it slowly. I. Don't. Giiiiive. Aaaaa. FUCK!

But since I'm here, all I'll say is this. The mere existence of Kinect and Move correlates to the fact they have no idea who they're targeting anymore. Especially Microsoft. Has NO ONE watched their E3 conferences for the past two years now? Clearly they have no idea what the fuck they're doing...At all. Must I remind everyone of the lack of any first party AAA titles for the past two years but a plethora of Kinect games coming from Microsoft? It's one game every year. Last year it was Gears of War 3, this year, it's Halo 4. Sony on the other hand...actually DOES stuff. But don't even get me started on Vita and THAT clusterfuck. Vita was pretty much the embodiment of what happens when a company doesn't know their consumers. You can deny it all you like, but that was simply the case. Sony thought that people would just gobble it up because it had Playstation on it. But that didn't happen. Clearly, they're doing SOMETHING wrong here. They had the third party support and there's some nice games on it currently as well, but it's not selling. It even had quite a heavy ad campaign running for it as well...Yes. Loyal fanbase, indeed. The Wii U has had a lackluster launch and is missing Nintendo's KEY first party titles and is filled with games you can already play on other consoles (and for some titles, for over a year now) and yet it's still selling. Obviously ONE company knows what they're doing and the other does not.

Anyway. Don't bother me anymore. Thanks. Bye. :D

[Smokey]

NINTENDO FANS AND NINTENDO DON'T GIVE A FUCK IT CAN'T DO THIS SHADER OR THAT SHADER.

they would if it could do em ;)

[BahnNZ]

90% of the time on a console you're playing 3rd party titles. These big games. Ass Creed,Batman and COD and the rest. 10% you play exclusives. For me the games I've enjoyed most this gen has been multiplat titles. Batman Arkham Asylum is my GOTG by a looog way, Borderlands, Bioshock and the rest a bit behind. Uncharted, Gears, Infamous were good but no Batman.

So what's important is how can reproduce this 3rd party game best. If only they all came out on PC, sadly they don't.

It's all about the best gaaaaaaaames. On the best hardware.

How good a game is about how good it looks, how good it plays. Yes we can all enjoy a Super Meat Boy that's all gameplay and no looks, but I'll take a Batman Arkham instead. Gameplay and looks.

It all seems pretty obvious to me. Saying your graphics blind may be cool and PC, but really, it's kinda lying to yourself. You want both. You deserve both. Grab both!

[OmniStalgic]

The fact I have two mentions means what I said went over people's heads. So I'll say it slowly. I. Don't. Giiiiive. Aaaaa. FUCK!

But since I'm here, all I'll say is this. The mere existence of Kinect and Move correlates to the fact they have no idea who they're targeting anymore. Especially Microsoft. Has NO ONE watched their E3 conferences for the past two years now? Clearly they have no idea what the fuck they're doing...At all. Must I remind everyone of the lack of any first party AAA titles for the past two years but a plethora of Kinect games coming from Microsoft? It's one game every year. Last year it was Gears of War 3, this year, it's Halo 4. Sony on the other hand...actually DOES stuff. But don't even get me started on Vita and THAT clusterfuck. Vita was pretty much the embodiment of what happens when a company doesn't know their consumers. You can deny it all you like, but that was simply the case. Sony thought that people would just gobble it up because it had Playstation on it. But that didn't happen. Clearly, they're doing SOMETHING wrong here. They had the third party support and there's some nice games on it currently as well, but it's not selling. It even had quite a heavy ad campaign running for it as well...Yes. Loyal fanbase, indeed. The Wii U has had a lackluster launch and is missing Nintendo's KEY first party titles and is filled with games you can already play on other consoles (and for some titles, for over a year now) and yet it's still selling. Obviously ONE company knows what they're doing and the other does not.

Anyway. Don't bother me anymore. Thanks. Bye. :Ddidn't this post just prove that you do care? lol...I'm not being picky here, but I'm not even planning on getting a Wiiu anytime soon, it's just simple discussion about a console launch, inputting in it is not a gauge of how much you "care" or don't, just fun to talk about for some.

And I agree that Nintendo knows there audience better than the other too, but mind you, they also released 3DS at $250, had similar lack-luster sells (remember everyone saying we don't need handheld platforms anymore) and only received this spark once they began selling 3DS at a much more market friendly price-point. So how much better they know there consumer is argumentative, and perhaps Sony simply isn't able to price-cut Vita as much as they would like, or doesn't have a popular enough game to sell it with. I will simply point out, the same logic was made with PS3's launch, and they have completely turned the platform around. Kinect/Move is nothing but each console manufacture responding to Wii's popularity, so I really don't get why you say those two products are proof that MS or Sony have loss some direction. Both platforms have been successful as well, they read the market and supplied a product that made sense. Sony is stagnant and archaic, always trying to sell to hardcore, then get more casual players towards the end of cycles, one could argue that's not as sound a business strategy anymore, but I wouldn't put Nintendo above either company in there products. Ninty basically put core gamers on the back-burner with Wii, and is pretty much doing the same with Wii-U. They of course will cater towards more dedicated gamers as well, but it certainly isn't the focus anymore, they are doing what will make them money. Just like each company is trying to do.

Before Vita launch, the forums and internet were happy with a $250 high-end portable gaming device. Only after more economic struggles, and Nintendo slashing the price of it's flaship handheld did $250 become expensive. Some things no company can predict or see coming, it's just what the market dictates. No one saw Samsung coming, and they are doing really well in TV's/Phones right now, even giving Apple a run.

side note, stop saying nonsense like "I win this thread" or "Don't bother me anymore" it's condescending. If you don't want to take part in the discussion don't. If you think it's pointless, don't post. I don't care if it's a joke or not, it's still irritating.

Good point too BahnNZ; I would want a console to do both. Maybe that Nintendo/Sony merger will happen one day if economy gets bads enough :shrug:

[masteratt]

they would if it could do em ;)
Haha, maybe mate. No way to tell since Nintendo will stick to their good game by design, not by polygons philosophy.

[BahnNZ]

Good point too BahnNZ; I would want a console to do both. Maybe that Nintendo/Sony merger will happen one day if economy gets bads enough :shrug:

In Japan Sony are basically seen as a ghost corporation, waiting to go bust or get bought out for their patent mine. Pretty horrible economic times we live in.

---------- Post added at 12:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 PM ----------


Haha, maybe mate. No way to tell since Nintendo will stick to their good game by design, not by polygons philosophy.


But.... You can have both. Jus' saying.

[masteratt]

Yeah but you guys are acting like not having the latter ruins the first. Good games will still be good games.

---------- Post added at 11:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:12 PM ----------

It's not going to be fun when PS4 is launching and we are seeing the same old 3rd person cover shooters just with 4times the ploygon. At least Nintendo is demo-ing the WiiU with new gameplay ideas. Not how many more polygons they can show you.

[BahnNZ]

We're acting if having the latter enhances the whole experience.

I'm sure it's great being able to move platforms on a touch screen. I enjoyed it the first time I did it 3 years ago on DoodleJump on iPhone.

[masteratt]

Yeah because we always see the best ideas 5 seconds after a console comes out :rolleyes:

This isn't going anywhere though. Let's agree to disagree.

[BahnNZ]

Often the best games that come out on a console are the early ones yup. Wii Sports anyone?

[masteratt]

Who said that? I think you misread my sarcasm.

I am saying the exact opposite. Good stuff will come out using it in interesting ways...Just not in the first 5 seconds of the console launch. Wait for key Nintendo IPs, wait till Rockstar gets on it, wait till the digital game space grows etc etc.

It's going to be a fun ride.

[BahnNZ]

But not a different ride to the one offered by XBox 720 with Smart Glass or the PS4/Vita combo.

Just with 10 times less polygons.

[masteratt]

Let's use Rockstar because I am most familiar with that. Do you really think Rockstar will use VITA/Smartglass in any serious way on those consoles knowing not even probably half the user base has access to them?

Where-as for WiiU, they will and it can be interesting. I loved Chinatown Wars for example. Which was built for a format with less power but interesting inputs.

[BahnNZ]

Everybody has either smartphone or an iPad these days. Actually I have 12 but that's another story. :) Nintendo are shipping an inferior 2 hour battery life resistive low resolution version of something everybody already has. It makes about as much sense as shipping a TV set with your console.

Smartphone / console integration is going to be huge next generation.

My iPad already talks to my TV quite happily. It controls my music, my TV, everything.

---------- Post added at 12:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 PM ----------

I'm hoping XBox 720 gets NFC. Then to join a game you just *tap* your phone on the console and can join automatically. Now there's real innovation. Nobody buys 8 controllers, but everyone brings their phone. Imagine that kind of gaming.

Shipping a proprietary tablet with your console locks you out of that.

---------- Post added at 01:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 PM ----------

So here's an idea, instead of shipping an inferior version of something we already have in with every console, take that $100... and... PUT A DECENT CPU AND DECENT MEMORY IN THE F***ING THING.

[D3adcell]

So here's an idea, instead of shipping an inferior version of something we already have in with every console, take that $100... and... PUT A DECENT CPU AND DECENT MEMORY IN THE F***ING THING.

But that's the whole point. Nintendo don't care about hardware power or pushing tech limits. They want to introduce new styles of gameplay to mostly appeal to their current audience and casuals (look at how the wii sold). They don't need the power and they are still coasting on those fumes.

[JasonXe]

people still buy consoles?

[AC!D]

Only 240 million home consoles give or take this gen.

[BahnNZ]

In summary:

Slow main memory, half the speed of PS3/360. 12.8GB/s peak performance
Slow CPU, slower than 360
GPU Low power chip only 1.5x(max) Xenos
Can't use SD Cards for Wii U content without a USB dongle
Triggers on Wii U pad not analogue, can't use them for racing games
1500 mAh battery in Wii Pad limiting use from 2-3 hours.
Wii VC store not integrated into Wii U system, needs a reboot
Wii titles not re rendered in HD, still look better on Dolphin. Needs reboot to play
No Wiimote and Nunchuck supplied but the controller used throughout. If you traded in your Wii your shit out of luck.
No killer launch app. No SMG, no Zelda
Ports inferior to 360 versions, frame rate drops, texture drop outs, missing effects
Very slow loading times in menus and in games throughout. System plain annoying to use
No headphone jack on Pro Controller
Not all games support mirror play on Wii Pad
Wii TV service MiA
Accounts locked to system
90 minute 5GB update before you can play it
COD Blops2 servers empty, no chance getting a game here in New Zealand


Seeya!

[AC!D]

Why are you so upset Bahnnz? You have some valid reasons so just don't buy it. No need to stress about it. Just move on. Next gen is just around the corner.

[Viper]

Want to read the developer comments from the Metro 2033 guys, are they part of this giant conspiracy too?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/7979408/Wii-U-CPU-is-horrible-slow

And THQ's Huw Beynon (working with 4A Games on Metro: Last Light) clarified by stating that they build the game engine with 3.2 Ghz CPU's in mind. So any drop in clocks will affect the game but there exists work around that can be done that won't change the game but simply don't exist in the game engine yet. Which is also the case for just about every 3rd party multiplatform title. The game engines are designed for the PS3 and X360 which both have CPU's clocked at 3.2 Ghz. So a game engine designed for that speed will have problems with anything less. Until they are optimized to take advantage of the code path of the Wii U CPU, it won't run as well. That's the nature of code and game engines.


Any tablet that has a resistive display would be defined as a cheap piece of crap, it's 2012, styluses went out with the Palm Pilot. That's before you talk about how much better the twin sticks feel on a 360 or PS3 pad compared to the Wii U pad. Any tablet with a two hour battery life would be considered a piece of crap too.
Funny, I've been using my fingers on all of Nintendo's touch screens just fine. And the analog sticks work just fine. You must be thinking of those old E3 demo units that used the 3DS sliders. And the battery life isn't 2 hours. Now you're just spouting false information.


It's not really about console sharing, imho. It's about principle. When I make ANY online account. No matter what. I can use that account on ANY system I want. Yes, some system might have to "disable" your old machines (PS3, Google Music, Itunes etc.), but they NEVER lock you down like this. It's simply unheard of. A lot of people have two consoles (one of the living room and another for somehwere else). They can't play their "own" games (downloaded) on both consoles. Fuck that. And I can only hope that this will be rectified peferctly (portable accounts, similar to 360 or PS3). ANYTHING less (I find PS360 already quite restrictive, being a PC gamer with Steam or even Origin) is unacceptable.

And yeah... I've never used my Steam account on several systems... OH SHIT, I DID? Yeah indeed. Oh, I do have 2 PS3s (well, I own one, my brother has another, and I often go to his place to play games, and I own more games than he does). Shit... another case closed. Oh, yeah, and I can access PSN from my PSP too (not that I do it, but I can).

THAT, Viper, is the problem. I can't do ANY of the things I do. I wouldn't lose a whole lot, but I would lose something.
I agree, it can be a problem but you have to realize that Nintendo designed this console to "work", for the most part, anywhere in your home reducing the need for multiple in home consoles. Range and the lack of Gamepad only use for every game prevents that goal but that was the intention. Range can eventually be extended with Miracast based routers (yeah, I know, another expense) but nothing can be done about developers not allowing Gamepad only use. So I agree. Hopefully they'll allow multiple console account use but I just don't know if that's in their plans given their initial intention with the console to begin with.


90% of the time on a console you're playing 3rd party titles. These big games. Ass Creed,Batman and COD and the rest. 10% you play exclusives. For me the games I've enjoyed most this gen has been multiplat titles. Batman Arkham Asylum is my GOTG by a looog way,
Then have a look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G0LBu9KzBY

Apart from a texture loading problem at 1:11 and one moment of reduced resolution shadows (looked bad on X360 too), it's your game of the year.
Are you really going to cry this much of that?


But not a different ride to the one offered by XBox 720 with Smart Glass or the PS4/Vita combo.

Just with 10 times less polygons.
But at what price for those combined products? And have fun holding an X360 controller in one hand a mobile device in the other.

And why isn't the PS3/Vita already doing this with every game? Let me answer, because you need 2 sets of software coded for it rather than just 1. Development costs are already high yet with the increase in costs coming with PS4/Next X, you think they are going to take on even more costs to also code the game up for a tablet/Vita?

Why didn't Ubisoft and Activision do any PS3/Vita integration with AC III or Black Ops II?


Everybody has either smartphone or an iPad these days. Actually I have 12 but that's another story. :) Nintendo are shipping an inferior 2 hour battery life resistive low resolution version of something everybody already has. It makes about as much sense as shipping a TV set with your console.

Smartphone / console integration is going to be huge next generation.

My iPad already talks to my TV quite happily. It controls my music, my TV, everything.
2 hours? More false information.
Resistive is fine. You only need the stylus to write something in detail. Fingers work for everything else.

TV integration. I take it you've not seen Nintendo TVii yet?



I'm hoping XBox 720 gets NFC. Then to join a game you just *tap* your phone on the console and can join automatically. Now there's real innovation. Nobody buys 8 controllers, but everyone brings their phone. Imagine that kind of gaming.

Shipping a proprietary tablet with your console locks you out of that.
You do know the Wii U GamePad has NFC built in? And the Wii U SDK has Unity built in which a lot of tablet/smartphone games are developed on. Nintendo Network accounts will be accessible on smartphones/tablets starting next year. Your idea is already in the works.

But if you're talking a bout using your phone as a controller, do you really want to do that? Unless your all playing Fruit Ninja, good luck.

[Segitz]

And THQ's Huw Beynon (working with 4A Games on Metro: Last Light) clarified by stating that they build the game engine with 3.2 Ghz CPU's in mind. So any drop in clocks will affect the game but there exists work around that can be done that won't change the game but simply don't exist in the game engine yet

That doesn't necessarily make sense, though. IPC is very different for In-Order and Out-of-Order Execution CPUs. So, even if the WiiUs CPU is clocked lower, it can keep up with PS360 in that regard, as it does "more work" in less clocks. But how much? I do not know.

What I don't understand is the load times. Supposedly, WiiU has a 5x BDROM, yet load times are just as bad, if not worse, than on PS3, with its 2x BDROM. Also, the menu navigation seems to be horribly slow. Not really sure why that is a problem. I just hope it's just "aftermath" of the launch and will be fixed. PS3 got most problems fixed by now. Not all, by a long shot, though.

I also don't understand why they went for a resistive touchscreen. Yeah, capacitive is more expensive, but they also last longer (with heavy use), allow multitouch and are MUCH more precise. In the long run, this might bite them in the ass, severly.

[Viper]

That doesn't necessarily make sense, though. IPC is very different for In-Order and Out-of-Order Execution CPUs. So, even if the WiiUs CPU is clocked lower, it can keep up with PS360 in that regard, as it does "more work" in less clocks. But how much? I do not know.

What I don't understand is the load times. Supposedly, WiiU has a 5x BDROM, yet load times are just as bad, if not worse, than on PS3, with its 2x BDROM. Also, the menu navigation seems to be horribly slow. Not really sure why that is a problem. I just hope it's just "aftermath" of the launch and will be fixed. PS3 got most problems fixed by now. Not all, by a long shot, though.

I also don't understand why they went for a resistive touchscreen. Yeah, capacitive is more expensive, but they also last longer (with heavy use), allow multitouch and are MUCH more precise. In the long run, this might bite them in the ass, severly.
True. Being OoOE helps make up for the drop in clocks (which is rarely acknowledged by Wii U detractors) but how much can that really make up for? We don't know enough real details about the CPU and game engine design to say.

Game load times are an odd one. You'd expect being a faster drive would simply give a faster load. There must be something else going on that we're not seeing. Maybe it's also loading a lot of background stuff like Miiverse at the same time. Menu loads will be fixed. Nintendo said they are already working on that. That just speaks of rushing to have as much ready for launch as possible and just not having enough time to optimize the load times yet. Look how much missed the final on board software call when the console went for manufacturing.

I still have an original DS from 2004 that works just fine. Same with the DS Lites we own. Only 1 has a touch screen problem with calibration but that one took a nasty 5 foot fall to the concrete. I've also never had a precision problem with the DS's. Not saying capacitive screens aren't more precise or last longer it's just is that precision difference needed and if resistive screens have lasted 8 years so far, is a longer life needed?

[Segitz]

Well, my HTC Windows Phones touchscreen got worse and worse over time... not that it didn't work in the end (the battery died first), but it was quite bad at the end... Maybe I was unlucky, but ... I can't say.

[Viper]

Well, my HTC Windows Phones touchscreen got worse and worse over time... not that it didn't work in the end (the battery died first), but it was quite bad at the end... Maybe I was unlucky, but ... I can't say.

I think if they were that bad, we've had had a million headlines on it already.

[Viper]

One area that Nintendo definitely didn't cut short on is motion control. The Gamepad has a total of 3 different motion detecting sensors all with at least 15 times the sensitivity of those used in high end phones and tablets (which is already of greater quality, being newer, than those used in the Wii remote). It also allows for 9 axis points of control and is self aware of its location. So it knows its position at any given point though it may not know how near/far from the TV it is (unlike Move thanks to the PS Eye and the glowy ball).

PNI, the comapny behind this new tech, looked at Move last year and found it had too high latency and inaccuracy compared to what they were working on. A team from Nintendo went to PNI to test their sensors to see if they could throw it off...basically make it not work right as could be done on the Wii remote and Move and they couldn't do it. No matter what they did to it, those sensors worked flawlessly. Even magnetic interference from audio speakers, metal objects, building girders and a cell phone couldn't push the magnetic sensors off target.




So, now we have the culmination of perfect 1:1 motion control.....but it's in the Gamepad and not the Wii remotes were it would do the most good. Damn it.

---------- Post added at 11:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:26 PM ----------

Also, system transfers are possible via Nintendo at the moment.


Here's a bit of good news. One unlucky chap had a bricked Wii U. He sent it off to Nintendo and wound up getting a new unit in return. When setting up that new unit, it asked for his old NNID, email and password. This transferred his account to the new Wii U, but it let him know that he couldn't do this with another system. Looks like Nintendo can set you up with your old NNID in certain circumstances.

This definitely suggests a user applied system transfer will happen at some point but still no indication of using your account across multiple units.

[Generosity of God]

i was wondering why aiming at the screen in the Takamaru's Ninja Castle (Nintendo Land) felt so accurate.

it was just as accurate as pointing with a Wii Remote.

[Segitz]

Hm... not that I have a lot of experience with Move, but it having a lot of latency was never one of the concerns I had (well, considering it's always coupled with a 60Hz camera, it has an inherent latency of 16ms at least, so that might be something, but since no game has less latency than that either, I can't tell if it makes much sense to lower it anyways). However, the Wuublet also has measurable latency, so... it sort of defeats the purpose.

I'd want to know the real specs of the gyros, though. Most gyros I used don't have enough "fast acceleration" precision (i.e. they can't detect higher Gs and just cut off).

[Segitz]

doublepost

[Viper]

Hm... not that I have a lot of experience with Move, but it having a lot of latency was never one of the concerns I had (well, considering it's always coupled with a 60Hz camera, it has an inherent latency of 16ms at least, so that might be something, but since no game has less latency than that either, I can't tell if it makes much sense to lower it anyways). However, the Wuublet also has measurable latency, so... it sort of defeats the purpose.

I'd want to know the real specs of the gyros, though. Most gyros I used don't have enough "fast acceleration" precision (i.e. they can't detect higher Gs and just cut off).
These are part of the package of sensors in the Wii U.

http://www.pnicorp.com/node/107
http://www.st.com/internet/analog/product/250725.jsp


But if you want higher G ratings, the upcoming H3LIS331DL model might suit your needs better.
http://www.st.com/internet/analog/product/253712.jsp

[BahnNZ]

This true?


Wii U codenames worth knowing: system Cafe, CPU Espresso, GPU/SoC/etc. Latte, ARM secure processor Starbuck (we made that one up).

1.243125GHz, exactly. 3 PowerPC 750 type cores (similar to Wii's Broadway, but more cache).

GPU core at 549.999755MHz.



Well f**k me until I fart.

Hence devs weeping openly when porting, hence weak ports.

System has been properly hacked wide open, security very weak and very lame.

[Viper]

This true?




Well f**k me until I fart.

Hence devs weeping openly when porting, hence weak ports.

System has been properly hacked wide open, security very weak and very lame.

I will ask you again to stop posting blatantly false information. If you continue, I will ban you from the Nintendo forums.

It's one thing that all you do is post the most negative stuff you can find. Can't believe you actively search for it to begin with. But to keep posting false information is a different matter entirely.

[BahnNZ]

Little sensitive huh? :) Ban away. If this is just the only good news Wii U channel then go for it. Instead of the latest technical news and rumours. Quite a "Debate" thread you got here. :)


I've asked him for the source, if not banned I will post. Does seem to have been hacked. Not just the Wii sub system that was hacked on launch day.

---------- Post added at 03:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:45 AM ----------

http://forums.sega.com/showthread.php?429963-Wii-U-clock-speed-has-been-found-by-marcan-(Wii-hacker)

Source, discovered by Marcan, a well known Wii hacker.

https://twitter.com/marcan42

sorry, I'd rather not talk about how I got that yet. It doesn't involve leaks, it involves Wii U hacks

[curryking1]

The info is supposedly from a well known Wii hacker who runs HackMii or something. Nothing is confirmed though, and thr info is only from him so far. We can just wait and see.

Not sure why you're threatening Bahn with a ban anyway.

Why is this thread named a dehate thread also. Shouldn't news suffice for discussion? Why have a whole debate about a single console lol.

[BahnNZ]

Good source, well known hacker with a reputation to lose, discovered by a Wii U hack.

It has a weak CPU, less than half the power of 360, banning me won't change that. We talk about these things in the full knowledge people who buy Wii couldn't care less about any of this, they just want their Mario, but as a development professional, this interests me.

This is why the ports were bad, this is why the developers were complaining.

No reason to get all mad and pull all the hairs out your porno moustache Viper. :)

[OmniStalgic]

^if the source is credible it's worth posting, but you have been negative in regards to everything WiiU, so I'm sure the question of "why" you are posting this info has been called into question. Change up your tone to be a tad more respectable , and I doubt any problems would come up. If I go back and read your post, it's border line trolling...

also, we don't want to post things up that aren't proven, like the install fiasco. Doesn't look good...

[BahnNZ]

Videogames, a serious business. :)

A debate is where there's two sides and both take a position? Why is this thread called a debate thread then? :) Heeeelllooooooo!

[Viper]

I wasn't threatening a forum ban for the Wii U's CPU speeds, read my post again. I was threatening for the false information regarding the system being hacked and the security being flawed.

In your initial post, you didn't state any means how the CPU numbers were obtained (nor did you provide a source) and you've previously attacked the Wii U based on the old Wii security exploits. So by saying, "System has been properly hacked wide open, security very weak and very lame." with no other information, it looked like you were talking again about the old Wii exploits.

As Omni said, change your tone and post a source next time and you might get a far warmer reception.

Debating is fine, posting false information isn't...which was the grounds the threat came from.


As for the exact specs, something sounds off about it and I think even Digital Foundry is calling them into question.

I'll put it another way, if that were the actual clock speed, no way in hell would any of those games even come close to running as well as they do on Wii U. Practically 1/3rd the clock rate and PowerPC 750CL cores that aren't designed for multiple cores or multiple threads and yet runs practically on par with a triple core dual threaded CPU clocked at 3.2 Ghz and slightly better than a 7 SPE CPU clocked at 3.2 Ghz? That's nothing short of god man amazing.

[BahnNZ]

How would you define secure then? It took 3-4 years for any kind of hack on PS3/360.

Clearly this is some new definition of the word "secure" I haven't previously been aware of.

I'll continue to post information as I find it, don't like it, ban me. I'll continue to tell jokes, don't like that, ban me too. Your forum, you want to run it like the Nintendo Taliban go for it.

There are those that like me, those that don't. That's fine by me. You want to ban people until this place is even more like a graveyard than it is, GO AHEAD!

[curryking1]

These are the sources I read. I couldn't care less if the games run fine, but this is what Bahn is talking about:

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/381115/wii-u-hacker-publishes-alleged-cpu-and-gpu-specs/
A well-known hardware hacker has published what is believed to be the processor and graphics card specs of Wii U.

It is said that the Wii U processor carries a clock speed of 1.24 GHz - less than half the speed of the PS3 and Xbox 360. However, its GPU core is believed to run at 550 MHz, which is the same speed as Sony's home console and a tad faster than Microsoft's.
The Wii U processor speed has previously been described by one developer as "slow and horrible", though Nintendo has never revealed the final system specs so it remains a matter for debate.
A hacker by the name of Marcan, however, may have brought an end to the speculation by publishing specs on his personal Twitter account. The hardware enthusiast is a well-known Wii hacker who publishes his work on HackMii.com.https://twitter.com/marcan42

---------- Post added at 11:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ----------

^Pretty sure the 360 was hacked much earlier than 2010 Bahn. But I also don't really care about that either lol.

[BahnNZ]

2009 for the big 360 hacks I guess? First few days nobody could work out how to take it apart even if I remember. :)

Damn good name for a forum that isn't it. "The Nintendo Taliban". Add a script to put beards on all the avatars. :)

Ops, telling jokes, can't be doing that. Serious business games...

[curryking1]

Bahn now you're kind of being a jerk about it though, play nice... lol.

'Alleged' specs are up there. Just have to wait and see what other hackers or developers comment about them. Or if they test it out themselves and confirm/deny the claim I guess.

[masteratt]

Of course you can post how you like. It was a simple miscommunication when you've been negative in 100% of your posts about WiiU then post claims without any source - What was anyone to think?

Now that the sources are there, Viper gave you a proper reply and no-one is threatening to do anything. So don't think there is a witch hunt on you and by all means carry on.

[BahnNZ]

I'm always nice!


Hector Martin ‏@marcan42
It's worth noting that Espresso is *not* comparable clock per clock to a Xenon or a Cell. Think P4 vs. P3-derived Core series.

Because Nintendo keep their specs secret it's a cat and mouse game with hackers and leaks. But a fun one no? It still plays Mario and Zelda, don't see why a Nintendo fan should care.

Seriously read this guys twitter, he's giving a live run down on the Wii U CPU. Really knows his stuff. Seems to do incredible things with his Roomba too.

---------- Post added at 05:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:59 AM ----------

Well, I've been a member of this forum for 7 years, I feel I've contributed a lot to it, one post with a delayed source I get threatened with a ban. What do I think about someone who threatens me with a ban.

When there's something I think is a good elegant powerful well designed solution on Wii U I'll be sure to post about it.

Can't think of anything right now... :)

[Viper]

Now you're intentionally being an ass just to see how I react.

Grow up.

[AC!D]

Both of you calm down. This is why we split the thread. If he posted incorrect info just shoot it down with proper info. No need to get angry. Also stop baiting him BahnNZ and stop acting like an insecure child. Everyone likes you here. If i could find the hug emoticon i would post it. Now calm down bitches!!!

[Segitz]

Well... as I said, you can't compare PS360 CPUs to WiiU (or Wii, for that matter), as the former are in-order, and the latter are out-of-order.

And the "real" 360 hack (not the DVDROM ones) happened later (well, in 2006). My source is in german, so I won't bother^^ But that doesn't really matter. Getting "into" the system is "trivial", but running stuff in Ring0 is interesting (i.e. breaking out of all sandboxes).

[OmniStalgic]

^hmmm...interesting indeed

[zero 7]

God everything on this forum is pulled to bits now days no wonder the place is dying a slow death regardless i bloody love my wii u fuck the haters

[curryking1]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6465/nintendo-wii-u-teardown

[curryking1]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-12-07-nintendo-blocking-18-rated-wii-u-eshop-content-at-certain-times
Nintendo blocking 18+ rated Wii U eShop content at certain times

The issue first came to light after a NeoGAF user experienced the issue and contacted Nintendo of Italy's customer support.

"Dear customer," a Nintendo representative replied, "we would like to let you know that Nintendo has always aimed to offer gameplay experiences suited to all age groups, observing carefully all the relevant regulations regarding content access that are present in the various European countries.

"We have thus decided to restrict the access to content which is unsuitable to minors (PEGI) to the 11pm - 3am time window."

Eurogamer has just tested this and it appears to be true. We were unable to access Assassin's Creed 3 information or buy ZombiU digitally.

"You cannot view this content," a message reads. "The times during which this content can be viewed have been restricted."

There messages appear for user accounts on which no parental controls have been set.

[D3adcell]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-12-07-nintendo-blocking-18-rated-wii-u-eshop-content-at-certain-times
Nintendo blocking 18+ rated Wii U eShop content at certain times

When the people who are old enough to access this stuff should be asleep to wake up, for their jobs (from which they make money to spend on gaming products).


14817

[TimmyJ]

Shit like this doesn't do anything to assuage the notion that Nintendo's just for kids.

[AC!D]

:lol:

[Segitz]

Well, it's better than what Sony Germany did, in the beginning, not releasing ANY 18+ stuff on PSN, and not releasing any demos for stuff 16+ (now, 18+ demos are restricted to PSN+ users, because in Germany, getting PSN wallet money or a PSN membership is actually "18+" rated in stores, I am not kidding). At least they did find a solution to this problem.

The time restrictions are also used here in Germany by certain websites. Origin for example doesn't let me download the Kingdoms of Amalur demo now and says "that I can only start downloading it between 23:00 and 6:00 (this is also the same timeframe, Germany television is allowed to show 18+ movies without much restriction.

So... what I am saying is... better this way than not doing it at all.

[masteratt]

Yeah I cam across that on the first day when I wanted to see what ACIII looked like or if it had a demo and was like "wtf".

It would be smart if they checked for parental restrictions and if none exists on console, let us view whatever we want, whenever we want. Because there are no rules as above in UK (or England at least) when it comes to videogames (TVs have them) so it's stupid I have to plan when I go on the store to get the 'full' experience.

[Viper]

Nintendo of Europe is based in Germany and the current speculation is that this restriction is only in place right now to appease German law until they can tie in the ESRB ratings in the parental controls onto the eShop for other Euro regions.

Eurogamer is expecting an update to the article next week.

[curryking1]

Sounds good. So this problem isn't in other territories like US and Japan then? Because that would be much easier to understand.

[Viper]

No, not an issue here or in Japan at all.

It's a German law thing that's just affecting the territories that NoE covers.

[Crazybone126]

These kind of issues only ever seem to exist in Europe. European law still has this fear of video games and I don't really know why.

[Segitz]

These kind of issues only ever seem to exist in Europe. European law still has this fear of video games and I don't really know why.

It does go both ways... If there's boobs, all hell breaks loose in the US. If there's violence, it'll be hell to pay in Germany. (doesn't really matter if games or movies... though movies historically have an easier time)

[Otacon305]

If there's violence, it'll be hell to pay in Germany.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MY9YpSs9Jg

[curryking1]

Tbh Germany probably has it the right way too. Sex is a lot less deadly that shooting people in the face :)

[Viper]

America does seem to have its priorities on backwards when it comes to sex and violence.

[Generosity of God]

meanwhile Australia is only starting to get over it's fear towards either. lol

[TimmyJ]

Tbh Germany probably has it the right way too. Sex is a lot less deadly that shooting people in the face :)

Depends what you're shooting them in their face with...

[The_Cat]

...until this place is even more like a graveyard than it is, GO AHEAD!

This is off topic, but... what in the world happened anyway? I check back in every now and then and every time it looks like there are fewer and fewer contributors here. Kind of makes one miss the Ninteno Fire/Nintendo Now days.

[masteratt]

The generation of young hyper spammers never got replaced with another one.

[frosty]

I'll put it another way, if that were the actual clock speed, no way in hell would any of those games even come close to running as well as they do on Wii U. Practically 1/3rd the clock rate and PowerPC 750CL cores that aren't designed for multiple cores or multiple threads and yet runs practically on par
with a triple core dual threaded CPU clocked at 3.2 Ghz and slightly better than a 7 SPE CPU clocked at 3.2 Ghz? That's nothing short of god man amazing.



What metric are you basing that comparison on? Because all the multiplats I've seen so far ran or looked better on PS3 than WiiU.

[Viper]

What metric are you basing that comparison on? Because all the multiplats I've seen so far ran or looked better on PS3 than WiiU.

Hang on a minute, I said, "practically on par". I'm sure you can concede that "practically" allows for some variance. And it's not like the PS3 and X360 versions run totally on equal either. It's not like every single one of them had reduced frame rates (drops here and there is not a reduce frame rate) or flat out looked worse.

And looked and ran better on PS3? Don't generalize so much considering AC3 and BLOPS2 say otherwise. AC3 ran better and BLOPS2 looked better on Wii U.

Trine 2 certainly looked better and it's about to receive and update to enhance the graphics for Wii U even further.

So when I said "practically on par", I think I should be granted some leeway on the miniscule specifics.

[OmniStalgic]

The generation of young hyper spammers never got replaced with another one.QFT...I know old-timers might miss the old days when there were more threads, but it was really just nonsense between a group of friends. Once they grew up a bit, and stop making Madhouse stuff, no one took over the reigns. Most popular sites are filled with trolls and fanboys now anyway, so it's really hard to simply get a good community with mature gamers. Most people probably just don't have time to forum browse anymore anyway...but I love this community...most posters here are actually my friends now...so screw da haterz

[Otacon305]

Most people probably just don't have time to forum browse anymore anyway

Yes, of course, who has time? Who has time? But then if we do not ever take time, how can we ever have time?

[Smokey]

wholly shit i just seen how big the 'controller' is for wiiu.. are they kidding? also i still cant believe we pay 100 bucks more still for the same shit when our moneys worth more i mean wtf.

[The_Cat]

QFT...I know old-timers might miss the old days when there were more threads, but it was really just nonsense between a group of friends. Once they grew up a bit, and stop making Madhouse stuff, no one took over the reigns. Most popular sites are filled with trolls and fanboys now anyway, so it's really hard to simply get a good community with mature gamers. Most people probably just don't have time to forum browse anymore anyway...but I love this community...most posters here are actually my friends now...so screw da haterz

There's no denying that there are still some good debates/discussion taking place here. It's good to see that some of the "old-timers" are still around to keep things going.

[TimmyJ]

Does anyone think there's a possibility that the WiiU has such shoddy hardware because Nintendo are intending to release a revised WiiU that only consists of the Wuublet? If so - and it seems possible within a couple of years, given its current 35W power consumption - does anyone reckon that Nintendo might then release a more fully functional base unit that can better function as a games console and central hub?

[Viper]

Does anyone think there's a possibility that the WiiU has such shoddy hardware because Nintendo are intending to release a revised WiiU that only consists of the Wuublet? If so - and it seems possible within a couple of years, given its current 35W power consumption - does anyone reckon that Nintendo might then release a more fully functional base unit that can better function as a games console and central hub?

Not likely. That would create way more market confusion than what already exists and compete with the 3DS.

Smokey, a lot of people had the initial impression that the Gamepad as 'too' big but rescinded that sentiment after just a few minutes of use.
Can't help you on the prices though. That seems to be an issue with the entire video game industry.

[frosty]

AC3 ran better and BLOPS2 looked better on Wii U.


BLOPS2 did not by any means look better on Wii U. Wii U had a slightly higher native resolution, but was lacking on other things in the PS3 version such as normal mapping and some dynamic shadows. Go look at the lens of truth comparison again.

(PS3 on left)
http://www.juegosdb.com/wp-content//2012/11/cod-black-ops-2-wii-u-vs-ps3-540x304.jpg

[Viper]

Please don't cheery pick the one facet the PS3 has over the Wii U graphically: the generals's forehead.

Look at the whole article.
http://www.lensoftruth.com/head2head-call-of-duty-black-ops-ii-screenshot-comparison-wii-ups3xbox-360/

[The_Cat]

Please don't cheery pick the one facet the PS3 has over the Wii U graphically: the generals's forehead.

Look at the whole article.
http://www.lensoftruth.com/head2head-call-of-duty-black-ops-ii-screenshot-comparison-wii-ups3xbox-360/

What's interesting is that, if you go to the second page, Wii U has nearly 300 more votes than PS3 as the winner of the "Head2Head" comparison. Frosty's own source says he's wrong. Funny stuff!

[Segitz]

Well... asking people stuff on the internet always is "biased", polls especially.

Also, it's clear why they say it. The higher native resolution offsets most differences in favor of WiiU. And I am not talking of the botched Gamma curve, either. Missing shadows (Rollover 6) and missing normals maps (Frostys pic) are quite something, that's wrong.

But does that make one version worse than another? I don't think so. BUT if the framerate of either version is notably worse, I'd call a winner here, and iirc, that's not the case either (didn't look it up, though).

The general point is, though... you buy a new, 300€/350€ console and it's only as good as your 200€, 7 year old machine, that's entering it's pension years, soon. Imagine if PS2 was only barely better, or even just on par with better resolution, as to say, PS1. NOBODY would've given two hoots about that machine.

Just compare these "late" PS1 games with their (launch) brethren on PS2.

http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/164089-tekken-3-playstation-screenshot-say-hello-to-eddy-gordo-the.jpg
http://www.fightersgeneration.com/np2/game1/ttt1.jpg
http://www.mobygames.com/images/shots/l/253578-ridge-racer-playstation-screenshot-one-of-the-cars-you-can.jpg
http://www.spieleradar.de/uploads/screenshots/23/ridge-racer-5-ps2-2v7_resized_1020_wm.jpg

And PS2 did cost the same as WiiU does now (well, not adjusted for inflation, but still)

[Viper]

Segitz, the resolutions are actually the same (though the Wii U does have the render and additional 400,000 pixels for the Gamepad).

I also don't see any missing shadows in rollover number 6 (or image number 6).

As for bias, that site is hardly biased in favor of Nintendo over Sony. So I don't see how that even comes into play given it most likely has far more Sony fans than Nintendo readers.

But as you should note, there is better texture resolution (see image number 5 with the general holding the upright gun) and less blur overall (see image 14 with general and men laying on the ground). I also notice better skin tones (less green) in many of the close ups...but that could just be something the dev did rather than a console specific factor (see image 14...less green and sharper textures).


Finally, gen to gen...yes, Segitz, I don't think that really needs to be noted any more than it already has a billion times. But that's not the point of this debate...or specifically the difference in the PS3 and Wii U versions of BLOPS 2.

[Crazybone126]

I don't know how many times I've had to say this or why people seem to disagree so strongly about it, but we truly *are* coming to the point where huge leaps like PS1 to PS2 or N64 to Gamecube are just not going to be happening anymore or ever again. We are coming to the point where our technology is becoming *too* good. It's how evolution works, my friends. Evolution for *anything*...whether it be for life or technology. Just as many scientists believe vastly noticeable human evolution is going to be a thing exclusive to our ancient ancestors, the same will be said about gaming and their previous generations of consoles. Instead, what you're going to see is slight upgrades in specific areas. Maybe higher resolutions, better textures and texture loading, faster and smoother framerates, etc. Stuff *beneath* the surface. We've pretty much already reached photorealism and it only took just a little over a decade to do it. Photorealism is as far as you are going to get, folks. Sorry.

Sorry, go back on-topic gentleman.

[curryking1]

As soon as we talk about photorealism we're inevitably going to talk about 'how photorealistic is photorealism' or something.

But I agree we're reaching a point of diminishing returns.

Also I bet almost no one cares if Black Ops 2 looks a crappier on WiiU.

Edit: By diminishing returns I mean on ROI and technology sort of plateauing right now. The cost to see those huge leaps in graphics are getting larger and larger it seems, even if parts are getting gradually and steadily more powerful. And the cost to create those cutting edge graphics is getting more and more too.

I hope developers will be able to use middleware more efficiently this generation, and more developers who choose to make their own engines will be able to plan and prepare better than for last generation, as well as use middleware to support them like Havok physics and whatnot.

[D3adcell]

For a real comparison take Black ops 2 on PC and compare it to consoles. I bet there isn't much difference. It isn't a matter of the hardware but a matter of the developers properly utilizing the tools they are given. When the 360/PS3 is the main development platform the ports to other consoles aren't going to be noticeably better/worse.

[masteratt]

I don't know how many times I've had to say this or why people seem to disagree so strongly about it, but we truly *are* coming to the point where huge leaps like PS1 to PS2 or N64 to Gamecube are just not going to be happening anymore or ever again. We are coming to the point where our technology is becoming *too* good. It's how evolution works, my friends. Evolution for *anything*...whether it be for life or technology. Just as many scientists believe vastly noticeable human evolution is going to be a thing exclusive to our ancient ancestors, the same will be said about gaming and their previous generations of consoles. Instead, what you're going to see is slight upgrades in specific areas. Maybe higher resolutions, better textures and texture loading, faster and smoother framerates, etc. Stuff *beneath* the surface. We've pretty much already reached photorealism and it only took just a little over a decade to do it. Photorealism is as far as you are going to get, folks. Sorry.

Sorry, go back on-topic gentleman.
As someone who works in the development field (granted, not gaming but they all have similar 'progress philosophy') all I can say to that is - Bullshiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii- :) The end line is not even visible to us right now. You'll be looking at games 15 years from now and laugh at your statement.

Just because Nintendo doesn't push boundaries doesn't mean we hit it (not saying that is a bad thing btw, I LOVE the ninty philosophy). Wait for PS4/Xbox3 :) Hell, see the advancements from Uncharted 1 to The Last Of Us. Uncharted 1 looks laughable now while at the time of it's release we were creaming our pants over it. They almost match Ps1 vs Ps2 shots in terms of advancement.

Just because you have become numb to the advancements or don't notice it, doesn't mean it's not there.



As for this BlopsII thing. I for one find it very amazing a brand new console matches those versions and in some aspects betters it (colour is MUCH better and close-ups look sharper).
Remember that is a primarily 360 engine that STILL runs like shit on PS3. Yet comes along WiiU and the game looks like it's been running on it for years.

I also believe WiiU still has a lot to show. Pikmin 3 looked fantastic and I can only imagine it's going to get better.

I'm telling you guys, if you were this critical on PS3 this early on (remember how abysmal everything ran on it early on - some still do), it would have been some scene around here.

Now I know what you are going to say "but ps3 obviously had better specs"...Well who the hell cares if it ran everything like shit. WiiU is running everything great. I know it might not match the next-gen boys but I am not one to speculate and am very interested to see what devs do about that.

---------- Post added at 12:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 AM ----------

I will add middleware is a problem more than tech itself. I know the reasons for middleware blah blah. But when everyone bases their games off of Unreal Engine, you are stuck seeing similar things.

There are only a handful of devs that get down to the nitty gritty of the system and suck out every ounce of power, i.e: Naughty Dog. Many others are multi-plat and are trying to keep costs down.

Just look at Halo 4. I bet no-one saw 360 pulling that out. It only takes one dev to show you what we've been missing out because of middleware.

Look at Planetside 2. Built for PC and dayum it looks stunning.

[curryking1]

I like how middleware like Havok and such though seems to help developers. Why waste time making a whole new engine just for physics?

Even flash helps make games doesn't it? It's a closed program, but it definitely brings a lot of ideas to the table.

I'm sure middleware has some advantages to bringing smaller developers into the game right? Not everyone can afford to create/modify their own engine like Bungie, IW, or all these huge studios at Nintendo and Sony.

I know what you mean though, Halo 4 does have ridiculous graphics. I was pretty surprised how much it improved on Reach. I thought Reach was going to be the highlight of graphics on 360 but I definitely was wrong.

[masteratt]

Yeah sorry. I meant 'problem' in the context of the debate. I.e: why we are not seeing huge advancements. Outside that context, go nuts with middleware devs! Better to work on the game than work on trying to get something running.

[Smokey]

Smokey, a lot of people had the initial impression that the Gamepad as 'too' big but rescinded that sentiment after just a few minutes of use.
Can't help you on the prices though. That seems to be an issue with the entire video game industry.
ya probably true mate but i had no idea it was 'that' big i couldnt imagine going from a svelt ps3 controller to that tbh. i really hope sony dont go that way and keep running with the DS3. it must be massive market differences though for a controller of that type.

[Segitz]

Segitz, the resolutions are actually the same (though the Wii U does have the render and additional 400,000 pixels for the Gamepad).

I also don't see any missing shadows in rollover number 6 (or image number 6).

As for bias, that site is hardly biased in favor of Nintendo over Sony. So I don't see how that even comes into play given it most likely has far more Sony fans than Nintendo readers.

But as you should note, there is better texture resolution (see image number 5 with the general holding the upright gun) and less blur overall (see image 14 with general and men laying on the ground). I also notice better skin tones (less green) in many of the close ups...but that could just be something the dev did rather than a console specific factor (see image 14...less green and sharper textures).


Finally, gen to gen...yes, Segitz, I don't think that really needs to be noted any more than it already has a billion times. But that's not the point of this debate...or specifically the difference in the PS3 and Wii U versions of BLOPS 2.

Well... WiiU looks sharper. Be it PPAA (post process anti aliasing) or a resolution difference. The textures look the same to me. But I didn't fully zoom into those pics, so. Whatever. The missing shadows in rollover 6 aren't as noticeable, tbh. The shadows that is missing (which is, I assume, a cutscene, so it should be the same "world", except for minor differences in clothing) is the one to the left of the "generals" right elbow, and the one on his face. Not sure about the textures in image 5. Could be textures, could be "IQ". Either one of these would result in the same "blurry image". But PS3 also got an update, which reduced texture blurryness after the fact, which might or might not be included in these images. The WiiU version is also missing most of the smoke in the background, which is quite bad for the "atmosphere" in a game like this.

And I didn't mean "site bias", but "internet people" bias. As in the people visiting the site. That's always the case with open polls. I am not trying to say anything more than to be careful with polls like these.

And... yes, gen to gen comparison. PS1 era to PS2 era. PS3 era to WiiU era, etc. Surely "you" don't like it, when WiiU looks just the same as the 6/7 year old consoles, yet costs nearly twice as much (PS3 Super Slim 12GB is 160€ at Amazon Germany today). The point I was making is that, since it's new, it's pricey, it should look much better, but it doesn't. That is why I compared late era PS1 games to launch PS2 games, which is a valid comparison to WiiU and PS3 now.

And yes, I'd say we'll see jumps like these when PS420 hits. At least "math-wise"

[Viper]

ya probably true mate but i had no idea it was 'that' big i couldnt imagine going from a svelt ps3 controller to that tbh. i really hope sony dont go that way and keep running with the DS3. it must be massive market differences though for a controller of that type.
There have been rumors of Sony doing a second screen controller. Plus Vita as a controller is already happening, sort of.

Think of how we feel. Look what our controller was last gen. Ours is an even bigger difference. To you, it would be similar just with a wider gap between your hands. Check it out at a local store demo. It's far more comfortable than one would expect.

And also note that most games targeted for the core market can use the Wii U Pro Controller which shares a lot of design cues with the older Wii Classic Controller Pro and the X360 controller.


Well... WiiU looks sharper. Be it PPAA (post process anti aliasing) or a resolution difference. The textures look the same to me. But I didn't fully zoom into those pics, so. Whatever. (1) The missing shadows in rollover 6 aren't as noticeable, tbh. The shadows that is missing (which is, I assume, a cutscene, so it should be the same "world", except for minor differences in clothing) is the one to the left of the "generals" right elbow, and the one on his face. (2) Not sure about the textures in image 5. Could be textures, could be "IQ". Either one of these would result in the same "blurry image". But PS3 also got an update, which reduced texture blurryness after the fact, which might or might not be included in these images. The WiiU version is also missing most of the smoke in the background, which is quite bad for the "atmosphere" in a game like this.

(3) And I didn't mean "site bias", but "internet people" bias. As in the people visiting the site. That's always the case with open polls. I am not trying to say anything more than to be careful with polls like these.

(4) And... yes, gen to gen comparison. PS1 era to PS2 era. PS3 era to WiiU era, etc. Surely "you" don't like it, when WiiU looks just the same as the 6/7 year old consoles, yet costs nearly twice as much (PS3 Super Slim 12GB is 160€ at Amazon Germany today). The point I was making is that, since it's new, it's pricey, it should look much better, but it doesn't. That is why I compared late era PS1 games to launch PS2 games, which is a valid comparison to WiiU and PS3 now.

And yes, I'd say we'll see jumps like these when PS420 hits. At least "math-wise"

(1) There is also a body missing so I think there is some play in what is seen in that scene. And I think that's rollover 5 you are talking about. Rollover 6 is the white guy.

(2) Look at the inset picture for image 5. You'll notice the missing "smoke" isn't so much missing but the mortar impact is further to the left in the scene so the 'smoke' wouldn't be in the same frame as the general. Similar to the 3rd image (the one with the PS3 extra forehead texture on the general). You'll see in the inset picture that the mortar impact on his right side instead of his left (as in the PS3 version).

(3) I agree that there can be a difference in the bias of the authors and the readers but the readers are exactly who I was talking about. The people that read that site are not often found waggling a Wii remote, if you know what I'm saying.

(4) Sure, and no one is disagreeing with his point. At all. Let's go back to what started this specific tangent. I said, Wii U 3rd party games were "practically on par" with the other consoles. Frosty tried to use the BLOPS2 comparison as evidence that it is not "practically on par". I pointed out many facets that actually showed the Wii U version was better. I still stand by what I said, "practically on par". But not once did I or anyone else state that the Wii U was a graphical generational leap ahead as is commonly found in new generation hardware. We'd have to be full blown tard to even entertain the thought. My point is the difference commonly found in the graphical leaps between generations is not what is at debate here...as there is no debate on that matter. 10 is a bigger number than 5. That's not up for debate. What is being debated is my "practically on par" statement.

So I must ask. Given the BLOPS 2 Head to Head data shown, is the Wii U version "practically on par"?

[D3adcell]

If anybody wants one a little cheaper they might want to check ebay. I just saw some end for 315$ and 320$. Not a whole lot less, but under MSRP.

[Segitz]

Amazon Germany had the Vita today with LBP for 160€... nearly ordered one. But not just yet (if it was hacked for homebrew, I would've gotten it).


So I must ask. Given the BLOPS 2 Head to Head data shown, is the Wii U version "practically on par"?

I'd say very much so, yes. The differences are too minute to make a judgment either way. And for a new console launching in 2012, with a pricetag nearly twice as high as the others (depending on where you look), Nintendo has a tough nut to crack now, convincing people the WiiU actually matters (this is also true against tablets, for that matter). But if it sells nor not doesn't really depend on either of these things. The price isn't too high and the performance is good enough to run PS360 ports. Is the tablet worth the premium?

[Smokey]

Look at Planetside 2. Built for PC and dayum it looks stunning.

tbh it dont look that good on pc, in triples anyway...

unless i gotta tweak it

[masteratt]

tbh it dont look that good on pc, in triples anyway...

unless i gotta tweak it

Dunno mate I can barely run it on low lol. I was going off this vid:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaYNzn8PTl8

[Segitz]

GPU die shot

http://www.chipworks.com/blog/technologyblog/files/2013/02/C10234F5_Poly_b.jpg

[Viper]

That EDRAM sure eats up some die space.

How many shader units in those 8 SIMD's? 20, 40 or 80 each? I'm still uncertain if it uses VLIW4 or 5 specifically or something totally custom.

[Segitz]

I can't "read" those images very well, so I'll quote from B3D


There is a fourth TMU block to the left of the other three, just laid out a bit differently. You can recognize that the memory cells are exactly the same, just in different positions (and the border is a bit unclear). Actually, if you look closely, you will see that all 4 TMU blocks are laid out differently. They really squeezed it in there. And with everything newer than the R600 generation, the number of TMUs is directly coupled to the number of SIMD units. They have to match. Wii U has 4 SIMDs with 4 TMUs each (16 TMUs total).

Edit:
And after thinking about it, I would say that are even full SIMDs in there (i.e. 320 SPs in total), even if they appear to have reached a a quite high density for that. But the clock target was low, which may have enabled a denser layout.
My reasing is as follows: One SIMD engine (without TMUs, which also appear quite small, but that's another story) measures about 3.0 mm². I don't remember seeing a good measure (or any at all) of an AMD GPU made at 40nm (I would expect the Wii U GPU is produced at TSMC, too), so we can just assume some scaling from 55nm (as GF's 32nm SOI is probably even harder to compare). A SIMD engine (just the 80 SPs without redundancy, LDS and TMUs) of RV770 measured about 6.4 mm². It's hard to come up with such a bad scaling to 40nm, that half of it would still be ~3.0 mm². It is more probable in my opinion, that they achieved higher than twice the density given the maturity of 40nm and the low clock target.
But as I said, the TMUs look quite small too and i fail to spot the LDS. Maybe someone else can offer more insight.


RV710 had two half size SIMDs and therefore 8 TMUs. As I said, starting from the R700 generation, each CU/SIMD has to have exactly 4 TMUs. The Wii U has 4 SIMDs (maybe even full size) which are just laid out in a unusual way to save the last fraction of a mm² on the die. It is basically a halved RV740 (8 SIMDs) with eDRAM on Die and some other changes (64 Bit DDR3 instead of 128Bit GDDR5, different external interfacing to the CPU and some southbridge functions).

Not sure if correct or not.

[Viper]

So that's considered just 4 SIMD's instead of 8 but with the 80 shader units per SIMD.

And is it just me or is there a lot of asymmetrical looking stuff going on in there? Normally you can easily account for recognizable blocks of logic but this thing has several unaccounted for blocks all over the place.

And why am I hearing talk of fixed function? Has a GPU ever had both fixed function pipes and programmable shaders?

[frosty]

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=59971

[Segitz]

So that's considered just 4 SIMD's instead of 8 but with the 80 shader units per SIMD.

And is it just me or is there a lot of asymmetrical looking stuff going on in there? Normally you can easily account for recognizable blocks of logic but this thing has several unaccounted for blocks all over the place.

And why am I hearing talk of fixed function? Has a GPU ever had both fixed function pipes and programmable shaders?

All GPUs have a lot of fixed function units, even today. Basically all texture operators and render back ends are fixed function. Nothing new, really.

The shader count, I can't tell. I just "know" that the recoginzable part on the left is the eDRAM, I guess. At least from looking at die shots of AMD Trinity.

[Viper]

All GPUs have a lot of fixed function units, even today. Basically all texture operators and render back ends are fixed function. Nothing new, really.

The shader count, I can't tell. I just "know" that the recoginzable part on the left is the eDRAM, I guess. At least from looking at die shots of AMD Trinity.

I meant besides the standard stuff. I was referring to fixed functions that were replaced with programmable units. Where units that normally would be programmable now are using a fixed function for a specific effect normally handled by modern shaders.

Yes, that bright section on the left is 32 MB of eDRAM. The smaller section above it seems to be a second pool of eDRAM...between 1 MB to 4 MB depending on who you ask.

[Segitz]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-wii-u-graphics-power-finally-revealed

Analysis by EG... for those who want to visit them.

---------- Post added at 05:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:32 PM ----------

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-wii-u-graphics-power-finally-revealed

Analysis by EG... for those who want to visit them.

[Viper]

Uh, Leadbetter. That guy just bothers me sometimes.


Something seems wrong with his edited die shot. Did he only highlight half of the shader units in red or are those units below it something else? Because they sure as hell look like more shader units to me. If there are 320 in just the red outlined portion and he's ignored the section below it, that looks like double the shader units.

Did he just poorly edit the die pic?
Did he fail to recognize there are 640 shaders?
Are those shader looking units something else entirely?

[frosty]

550MHz. AMD's RV770 hardware is well documented so with these numbers we can now, categorically, finally rule out any next-gen pretensions for the Wii U - the GCN hardware in Durango and Orbis is in a completely different league.

Right where I pegged it. Not much better than PS3/360, as the CPU will gimp where the GPU excels.


While there's still room for plenty of debate about the Wii U hardware, the core fundamentals are now in place and effectively we have something approaching a full spec. It took an extraordinary effort to get this far and you may be wondering quite why it took a reverse engineering specialist using ultra-magnification photography to get this information, when we already know the equivalent data for Durango and Orbis. The answer is fairly straightforward - leaks tend to derive from development kit and SDK documentation and, as we understand it, this crucial information simply wasn't available in Nintendo's papers, with developers essentially left to their own devices to figure out the performance level of the hardware.

That can't be a wise move for game development.

[Viper]

So are we just going to ignore all this logic in red? Especially the area in blue which looks exactly like the shader units Leadbetter highlighted above them?

That can't all be a DSP, video encoder and security logic. Especially since that's large what that stuff in the bottom left is.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y122/viperempire/WiiUGPU1_zpse058a6b8.jpg

[Segitz]

I'd say it's something else, because... well it looks different.

Logic and RAM are usually is very "homogenous". Your rect circumference isn't. But, as I said, I can't really read those thing properly.

The "rectanglish" part above the blue should also be blue, and the part above it was said to be the TMUs... not sure, though.

EDIT: Also, from what I read, the shaders are actually quite a small part of a GPU overall (same is true for CPUs these days, as less than half the space is often taken up by the cores).

[Viper]

The "rectanglish" part above the blue should also be blue, and the part above it was said to be the TMUs... not sure, though.

See, if you look at Leadbetter's pic, that blue part is not listed as being shader units. Only the section above it is.

Here is Leadbetter's pic.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y122/viperempire/WiiUGPU2_zps2ad08753.jpg


And here is a closer view of the shader section. It looks like there should be 2 sections of shaders. The top one as note din his pic. And one directly below but slightly offset.


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y122/viperempire/WiiUGPU3_zps97883fec.jpg

[Segitz]

Well, the people over at B3D are better at this than him or I... so yeah. I dunno. The gist seems it's 320 cores.

[Viper]

My question then would be are all 320 encased in that red highlighted portion in Leadbetter's pic or is it across both shader looking sections as I've pointed out in my pic with arrows?

Because if it's all in that top row, what the hell is that row below that looks exactly the same?


What's B3D saying makes up all that remaining space?

[Segitz]

I think it's both areas. Trinitys shader units look very like those, too (and those are "AMD annotated").

[Viper]

I think it's both as well. The 2 sections look too much alike. I'm just buggered by another Leadbetter gaffe.