PDA

View Full Version : Why did GC use mini-discs



GCfanboy
08-01-2001, 07:04 AM
Can someone help me out here? Why use mini discs? The Playstation 2's DVD roms can hold 4 point something gigs of space. That's about two and a half time more than Nintendo's mini discs. I know they prevent piracy but that's a big step in space there. Is there anyway that they can make discs that can hold more. Like hold cartridge sizes increased as time went on. But then again, couldn't they use mutiple discs, or multi-layer discs or compression or something to show that this format is just as good as the PS2's and Xbox's. Someone help me out here. Also, why do I hear people saying that Xbox has full DVD playback and that PS2 doesn't? What do they mean by full DVD play back? Why doesn't the playstation 2 have full DVD playback, and what the heck is full DVD playback. I'd think of it as putting the DVD inside the drive and it play. I'm confused, someone relieve me of all my questions.

zmaster
08-01-2001, 02:38 PM
PS2's DVD Roms hold 4Gig's of space? There's a new one. If they hold 4GIG's of DVD, then that's just the DVD compatibilities. I'm pretty sure that the GCN discs hold more then the PS2 discs. As for the Full DVD Playback, refer to the 4GIG's of DVD space. It means that the X-Box can play any DVD, all the way through, while the PS2 has a limit of 4GIG's of DVD it can play. Keep in mind that I really don't know alot about PS2 or DVD, so all that I said could be wrong. But, I hope that helped a little.

BigSky
08-01-2001, 02:48 PM
yeah, you are wrong

GC holds 1.5 Gig.
PS2 holds 4.7 Gig.
XBox holds 4.7 Gig.

On the XBox, and I have to assume the PS2, you can double the number of gigs for dual layered DVDs.

zmaster
08-01-2001, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by BigSky
yeah, you are wrong


Oh well. Just trying to be helpful.

BigSky
08-01-2001, 02:52 PM
a simple look at all the faqs at say IGN would have cleared the issue

Mario's Dad
08-01-2001, 02:54 PM
GC disks should be plenty big for most games. They can also be dual layered and double sided which will give you a lot more space. Xbox uses DVD 9 which is dual layered and gets about 8.5 gigs.

Pretendo
08-01-2001, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by GCfanboy
Can someone help me out here? Why use mini discs? The Playstation 2's DVD roms can hold 4 point something gigs of space. That's about two and a half time more than Nintendo's mini discs. I know they prevent piracy but that's a big step in space there. Is there anyway that they can make discs that can hold more. Like hold cartridge sizes increased as time went on. But then again, couldn't they use mutiple discs, or multi-layer discs or compression or something to show that this format is just as good as the PS2's and Xbox's. Someone help me out here. Also, why do I hear people saying that Xbox has full DVD playback and that PS2 doesn't? What do they mean by full DVD play back? Why doesn't the playstation 2 have full DVD playback, and what the heck is full DVD playback. I'd think of it as putting the DVD inside the drive and it play. I'm confused, someone relieve me of all my questions.

Nintendo decided to use the much smaller 8cm Mini DVD's to prevent software piracy. PSX/2 discs are either black or blue to do the same, but Sony opted to stick with the larger, standard size, as developers a la Square tend to be a little superfluous when it comes to pre-rendered video. Just because GCN's discs are smaller by no means condones them as more expensive. In fact in material value GameCube MDVD's are quite cheaper than the larger formats.

Lets also not forget that 1.56GB's of space can easily be doubled by multi-layering, and it's quite possible to have more than 3 layers per disc. But once more 1.56GB's is quite large. Take the 1GB Dremcast GDROM's, only a handfull of two disc titles where ever released. Also with new technologies such as MPEG-2/3/4 can compress data, but the output remains high quality, and GameCube certainly has the power to decode such decompression algorythyms on the fly.

FYI: Factor 5 has only used 200MB's or so for Star Wars Rogue Leader: Rogue Squadron II, which features excepional high-quality sound and cut-scenes from the movie.

³ıı
08-01-2001, 03:12 PM
only 200! imagine if all 1.5 g's were used....hopefully they are...mroe sound...and cutscenes...mmmm..

Pretendo
08-01-2001, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by 311
only 200! imagine if all 1.5 g's were used....hopefully they are...mroe sound...and cutscenes...mmmm..

That would be l337:D

³ıı
08-01-2001, 04:03 PM
whats l337

zmaster
08-01-2001, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by 311
whats l337

I think he meant 1,337.

dragulongx
08-01-2001, 05:08 PM
Man I like it when I Pretendo can say something that are better replies than mine. I also like GCN disc because they're portable.

³ıı
08-01-2001, 05:13 PM
butthe thing is, will they come in smaller cases? or will they come in big dvd ones. cuz if they come in big ones, they aint that portable...

BigSky
08-01-2001, 05:15 PM
portable???

non issue, we are talking a matter of inches in width, nothing more

zmaster
08-01-2001, 05:16 PM
BigSky's right 311. Any CD is portable. All you need is large pockets.

³ıı
08-01-2001, 05:22 PM
but dude, what u gona carry it in.. do you want to sratch it???so how big is the case gonna be....
i dont wanna carry a disc in one hand, GCN in another and balance my controller when going to a friends...

CubeFaN
08-01-2001, 05:46 PM
Most likely ninendo is gonna put the disks in a small DVD case. Why would they waste money and plastic by putting them in a regular DVD case?


Also who needs 4 gigs of space?

Small discs prevent piracy, you dont waste space and if you need space you can always double-side it or dual-layer it, small discs = faster loading times, and they are easier to develop for.

tiny_prey
08-01-2001, 06:08 PM
nope, sorry...regular DVD cases.

but yea, in the future...space will be all about compression...not high compacity

dragulongx
08-01-2001, 06:09 PM
Okay so far Nintendo is thinking of selling the GCN disc in smaller DVD cases probably the size of Game Boy boxes but thinner, but they might still use regular DVD cases because of instruction booklet size and the fact that they might not want to pay to make a smaller case. Plus have you even looked at that tiny circle inside your CD-ROM where you put the disc that thing is small so it can fit in your pocket easily. If you're worried about scratching well how did you keep your CDs?

BigSky
08-01-2001, 06:15 PM
yeah, i find it such a burden to carry around music cd's, i mean it's rough, and they are so heavy

CubeFaN
08-01-2001, 07:09 PM
What if nintendo put a storage drawer on the bottom of the GAMECUBE.

It seems cool but dumb at the same time.

Pretendo
08-01-2001, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by 311
whats l337

Oh lol, it's h4x0r slanguage;)

l337= leet better known as elite

Mario's Dad
08-01-2001, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by CubeFaN
Small discs prevent piracy, you dont waste space and if you need space you can always double-side it or dual-layer it, small discs = faster loading times, and they are easier to develop for.

Where does this misconception that smaller disks= faster loading? It doesn't have much to do with it.

CubeFaN
08-01-2001, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by Mario's Dad


Where does this misconception that smaller disks= faster loading? It doesn't have much to do with it.

Check here http://cube.ign.com/news/36131.html

BigSky
08-01-2001, 08:46 PM
the article really does not state that faster load time are achieved by using small discs

it's really what the read speed of the discs are and the ability of the processor to get it all on screen

³ıı
08-01-2001, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by dragulongx
If you're worried about scratching well how did you keep your CDs?

man i keep my cd's in top conidition...especially my 311 ones...lol
but what i meant, you guys are talking about putting them in your pockets. right? but how can you fit a 8 cm disk WHICH IS IN A DVD CASE (bigger than a pocket) in a pocket. but if you dont use a case, then you will scratch it since not all pockets are made of fine felt, like mine...

BigSky
08-01-2001, 08:57 PM
people who wear big baggie pants with big baggie pockets won't have a problem

³ıı
08-01-2001, 09:07 PM
okay dmx....you can hae ur baggie pants and let teh mhang down to your knees, but i would imagine a lot of us on here, where them normally, or at least a bit...

BigSky
08-01-2001, 09:14 PM
then just get a fuking brown paper bag to put them in

³ıı
08-01-2001, 09:20 PM
hahaha...i would prefer a backpack, but it's what ever melts your butter..

Pretendo
08-01-2001, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Mario's Dad


Where does this misconception that smaller disks= faster loading? It doesn't have much to do with it.

I was just about to hit submit on a rather long post with an answer, but it figures Me would give me a wet slap in the face with a BSOD. But I'm sure that link did the job;)

BigSky
08-01-2001, 10:05 PM
uh, no, that link has nothing to do with size of the disc and faster loading times

tiny_prey
08-01-2001, 10:33 PM
i thot smaller disc=faster spin or sumtin...o well.

maybe the link was shown 2 prove that smaller duzn't equal fast?

BigSky
08-01-2001, 10:40 PM
the link merely shows that the GC will have low load times, at least for most games, and that any worries NIN had about load times and their so called effort for the ROMs on N64 to keep load times minimal is not a problem when they start using the new format

but is does not say the load times are any faster than anything else, and size has more to do with piracy then load times cause of the size of the disc

for instance a 20x cd rom reader will read 5x's faster than a 15x's CD rom reader. A mini disc in a cd rom reader will spin no faster than a normal sixed cd rom.

CubeFaN
08-01-2001, 11:55 PM
GC disks also have smaller areas to scan too.


So a 15x cd rom reader with a GC disk with only 3 inches to scan, might be able to read as fast or faster than a 20x cd rom reader with a regular sized DVD.

CubeFaN
08-01-2001, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by CubeFaN
GC disks also have smaller areas to scan too.


So a 15x cd rom reader with a GC disk with only 3 inches to scan, might be able to read as fast or faster than a 20x cd rom reader with a regular sized DVD.

= smaller disks = faster load times !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

CubeFaN
08-01-2001, 11:58 PM
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BigSky
08-02-2001, 01:35 AM
yeah, I am sure it's noticeable, sure it is

³ıı
08-02-2001, 04:17 AM
smaller discs do have faster laoding times. but wdoes the actualy size of the disc matter, otr the content

Jim
08-02-2001, 01:32 PM
Did none of you guys even bother to read the link????!!!!!!!

For crying out loud it says this in the third paragraph!!!!

Looking for Loading
At E3 one of our biggest worries was that Nintendo would fall through on its promise, and load times would be only remotely better than the terrible load times we've seen on the PS2. As it turns out though, for the most part Nintendo delivered on its promise.

This clearly states the the load times on the Gcube are gonna be better than the PS2!!!! Yah for Nintendo.....

Have yis all checked out My Q&A page (http://www.cube-europe.com/misc/qa.html) so far no questons there have nothing to do with this topic but fire in ya questions guys!!!! and......

Game on dudes!!!!

Pretendo
08-02-2001, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by BigSky
uh, no, that link has nothing to do with size of the disc and faster loading times

Lets practice responding nicely shall we? I myself have gone out of the way to do so for you.

<b>Smaller discs equal <i>FASTER</i> loading times</b>

Smaller discs naturally have smaller read areas than larger discs. If your willing to rewrite the laws of physics be my guest.

Now GameCube utilizes 8CM Mini-DVD's as it's standard storage medium. Xbox and PS2 use standard size 12CM DVD's.

GCN MDVD Read Area=2.5CM
12CM DVD Read Area=5CM

All consoles utilize CAV (Constant Angular Velocity) drives, which is optimal for this medium. CAV drive read devices move in a intersecting route through the pits and lands imbeded in the DVD's. To read the data stored on the DVD the reader has to move back and forth to send that data to the system. Naturally having to navigate through a smaller area means less time searching or "seeking" for data on the disc and transfering that to the system.

Kevin Dyack one of the programmers for Silicon Knights who's working on Eternal Darkness noted in development videos with IGN loading times on GameCube are in fact faster than the N64's, and seeing the seamless transitions between rooms he certainly has some proof to back him up.

If you haven't seen the video, I'm sure most of us here have played Zelda: The Ocarina of Time. Well in Hyrule castle you'll notice there are a few fixed camera angles. Those feature pre-rendered backgrounds. The loadtimes between rooms in ED and TOT are seamless. The kicker here is, instead of GameCube loading bassically a picture with a scaling map, it loads hundreds of high polygon models, large amounts of textures, sounds, effects, etc. Thats quite a measurable feat.

BigSky
08-02-2001, 04:12 PM
like i said that article had nothing to say regrading faster load times due to smaller discs, sure it may be true, but you are only talking fractions of a second, fractions

spin speed and read speed are more important

but if you want to believe that fraction of a second matters then by all means do so

or are you trying to tell me you will get a noticeable reduction in time, then please tell me how much faster it is in seconds

Pretendo
08-02-2001, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by BigSky
like i said that article had nothing to say regrading faster load times due to smaller discs, sure it may be true, but you are only talking fractions of a second, fractions

That hasn't been proven as fact, but smaller seek times <b>ARE</b> noticeable.

And as Kevin Dyack said GameCube load times are in fact as fast as the N64's. Nuff' said.



spin speed and read speed are more important

RPM is pretty much irrelavent as virtually all drvies have the same speed rating. And yes read speed is important, along with seek times.



but if you want to believe that fraction of a second matters then by all means do so

Read this post very carefully.



or are you trying to tell me you will get a noticeable reduction in time, then please tell me how much faster it is in seconds

Read my previous post, <i>very</i> carefully;)

Crescendo
08-04-2001, 03:01 PM
I know of wo reasons,
1) cheaper prices
2) so no one can burn their games, but of course, someone will figure out a way soon anyway.