Beauty

[dragulongx]

It looks fake and real at the same time.

[Cube Gamer]

Kinda looks like a stuffed animal, looks weird cause of its eye and ears.

[BigSky]

great XBox grpahics on that fur bunny

now let's see another system do that!

realistic fur = more realistics environments across the baord for XBox games

[dragulongx]

Do graphics matter? I was already happy with the Dreamcast's graphics.

[BigSky]

yes graphics matter

that's why they are called videogames.

games that use the eye

if a game can be imporved with draw distance and you can see that turn more clearly you suddenly have a better game


get it?

[jojoski]

I agree that good graphics are great, but chronotrigger is my second favorite game, and it is on snes. I say that the quality of the game really depends on gameplay.

[BigSky]

no, not really

a gameplay with good graphics makes that game so much better and approaching classic status

i mean, why do companies then bother with graphics at all?

why are video games always pushing the graphical boundaries and pushing the limits as a console goes through it's life span??

accept the fact that these are 'videogame' not just 'games'

the video factor is important casuse it can realism and shock value. also, I appreciate good art in a video game, be it backgrounds or models, the artists used in video games play an important role to immerse you into what ever world is being created for you to enter.

[dragulongx]

Graphics that kick ass is really good in a game. Its just that I think that companies should spend atleast 90% of the time on the gameplay, concept, control, etc instead of graphics. When done with the gameplay, concept, control, etc I think thats when they should show work on graphics more.

[jojoski]

I didn't mean to say that graphics didn't matter, I meant that gameplay matters more. There is a boundry to graphic quality. Pretty much any game system that comes out afthe GameCube/X-Box will only need to have better games, as far as i am concerned, not better graphics. I was happy with N64's graphics and I will be happier with gamecube/x-box graphics(depending on what i get), but i am really only looking for good games, not graphics anymore. Maby i am being old fasioned.

[BigSky]

look at the ps2 then

it's so hard to get good graphics on that system that a lot of gameplay has been sacrificed cause of it, that's just judging by it's current line up of games, with only a few exceptional titles

XBox is easy to develope for, all dev houses have said that.
So if it's easy to put out good graphics as well as less costly then indeed companies will have more time to concentrate on gameplay.

GC is said to be easy to develop for as well.

The PS2 made all this arcane hardware and every developer has complained at one time or another about lack of documentation. The PS2 couldn't even use it's built in Anti-Aliasing features cause it bogged down the frame rates, thus the early games were very jaggie. The dev houses had to write thier own AA programs. The make a game more expensive and less focus it put on the gameplay.

[dragulongx]

The GC will be much more easier to develop for if companies will buy the new development kit.

[BigSky]

what??? got a link??
what exactly do you mean??

MS practically gives it's dev kits away.
Even to garage dev houses.

[dragulongx]

Nevermind.

[dragulongx]

OK

[Tyrel]

......what a qaint little creature.......
I would be REALLY impressed if this pic had some backround to it....and the stuffed bunny moved...and there was stuff in the backround that ACTUALLY moved.

[BigSky]

i'd be really impressed to see any other system, including GC come even close to producing such a texture

this is only the begining kid

[jojoski]

You don't get it. I LOVE good graphics. I just said that the graphics in a game don't make the game a classic. I can see your point, graphics can make a game good better. I say that you dont need graphics to have a good game.

[Pretendo]

Uhh mind giving us a explanation to the pic?

It could be concept art, pre-rendered, or totaly irrelevant.

Also to the guy who says GCN can't pull those 'textures' off, your right it can't, Xbox can't either. Reason- Thos aren't even textures. Likely a modified form of bump mapping, or the "cilinder" technique from Alias Wavefront's Maya 2.5.

Until I see something from a justifiable source, I'll be taking that screenie with a large grain of salt.

Lets not forget if it isn't rendered in real time, just about any hardware that can support a 3D engine can pull that off...well sorta, but I won't go into specifics.

[BigSky]

source of pic

http://www.xbox.com

[simps]

what the fuck is that? lol a turd or a caterpillar.. i can't tell

[BigSky]

it's something you will never see on GC

[dragulongx]

Pretendo is so smart. I have to agree. Unless graphics have something to do with the gameplay like seeing far it doesn't matter or it does not make the game.

[dragulongx]

If these are truly X-Box graphics how come Azurik couldn't be as detailed as Zelda? How come Microsoft lied in some pictures? Are you sure these are not running on a PC? It looks like a picture taken by a camera in real life. I still need a picture of it or a video with it in action with the background. Also the screenshot could be something that could be done in a cinema not gameplay.

[Temjin]

Originally posted by dragulongx
If these are truly X-Box graphics how come Azurik couldn't be as detailed as Zelda?
Either a.) Developers style. b.) Team in charge of this game aren't as talented as the folks doing Zelda. c.) They're just not trying. :)


How come Microsoft lied in some pictures?
Two corrections. They never lied, and they only released one picture, not pictures. And it was an accident. The only thing that was edited was a picture with lens flare, I believe. It wasn't that big of a deal.


Are you sure these are not running on a PC?
Well, they're running on complete XDKs... In a way, they're running on PCs. But the Xbox should be able to produce graphics like these.


It looks like a picture taken by a camera in real life. I still need a picture of it or a video with it in action with the background. Also the screenshot could be something that could be done in a cinema not gameplay.
I'm pretty sure these can be done in gameplay. But you'll have to wait awhile for your proof, dragulongx. :)

[MATRIX-X]

'Well, they're running on complete XDKs... In a way, they're running on PCs. But the Xbox should be able to produce graphics like these.'

beta kits are the xbox just without all the debugging

[dragulongx]

Graphics maybe important in gameplay but why are you guys so obsessed with it? Yeah, it would be sooooooo cool to see a system that can produce graphics during gameplay not cinema sequences that look exactly like the real life around us. Also most people are already happy with DC's graphics.

[BigSky]

why do you care so much if people like graphics??

again, your philosophy on graphics is not to clear

why make a new systems with better graphic capabilities???


appreciate the artwork of graphics, if you could you would see why people like graphics and why we play 'videogames'

of course you could alway play supre nintendo for the rest of you life, and I am sure you would be completely happy

face it, graphics are half of what make up video games, get real

[MATRIX-X]

if the graphics are more real the total experience gets better,you get sucked deeper into the story/plot,that is what videogaming is about.and graphics will improve gameplay, take bloodwake you will not have a live bar you will see how much a enemy is wasted by the structure damage of the boat.

[dragulongx]

I appreciate Matrix-X's replies unlike yours Bigsky.

[BigSky]

go cry elsewhere dragon

[dragulongx]

What makes you think I'm crying? I was just asking why you care so much graphics. You could have said something simple. But here you go talking about that I will be completely happy with just the SNES.

[simps]

Originally posted by BigSky
it's something you will never see on GC

crap?

[simps]

to be honest.. now that i look even closer.. the thing really doesnt look real.. even stuffed rabbits have eyes.. and that is just one thing on a white background.. that's nothing, i bet gamecube could produce that, given the same conditions

[simps]

lol of course they can add animation to that and get it going at maybe 15 frames per second....

sorry cloudysky or fatsky or whatever... Games dont consist of still images made of one color with a white background...


then you go about talking kiddy games... what would a <i>mature</i> (supposedly) system like xbox need with a plush rabbit?

[BigSky]

simpy, or simple minded, who ever your are

try using your imagination

it might be hard but give it a try

[Temjin]

I dont see why some people are making such a big deal out of the bunny picture. It was only meant to show off that fuzzy crap on it. Nothing more. Its not a technical marvel. I'm sure the Gamecube is capable of it. Maybe even the PS2.

[dragulongx]

Originally posted by BigSky
simpy, or simple minded, who ever your are

try using your imagination

it might be hard but give it a try



We have to use our imagination to see that the fuzzy turd could be done graphically on the X-Box? lol

[cube4life]

fuzzy rabbit on the xbox lol fuzzzzzzy rabbit lol rotfl fuzzy wuzzzy rabbit lol ahem ok im better now . whats the deal with the rabbit?

[dragulongx]

Bigsky thinks that the fuzzy rabbit could be done graphically on the X-Box. He found the fuzzy thing I really don't believe in a X-Box site.

[MATRIX-X]

its just a feature of the nv2a and nv20 pixel shaders no real preformance hit since its done hardware wise.its just a demo.

[BigSky]

some of you kids here are pretty slow, aren't 'ya??

please think jsut a little before you post your obvious ignorance to the world

that site was the officla XBox site and read the damn article, gosh, don't be morons

[Next_Genner]

It's true the article is on the official Xbox site. It mostly discusses how Xbox can produce images true to life like single grass blades blowing in the wind, and leaves on trees that look just like their real life counterparts when viewed closely, and yes it even talks about being able to see every single hair on a fuzzy bunny which is what has been the main focus about this topic. Then the article goes on to discuss how all of these things will be integrated into games to create a more immersive experience.

[Pretendo]

Would you Xbox fanboys give me a link!?!? All I've gotten so far is your opinion onthe pic. Who cares if it's hosted at 'Xbox.com' IGN has concept art on the site for all sorts of games. Lets not forget that 'bunny' may not be rendered in real time. If it's below 15 FPS it's viturally meanigless as it makes real-time, interactive gameplay, impossible. Now until you can provide some concrete fact to your claims, the humility of you trying to declare Xbox as possesing superior hardware is outright laughable.

[BigSky]

xbox.com is the link you fool, the did the test, they produced the graphic

it's a new type of texturing

how many years do you expect textures to be done the same way, read the damn article, and is yet to be seen what the GC will really have under the hood and what it can do, for so little has really been shown so far for the GC, but that's typical hide and seek for Nintendo

[Bladefall]

I will admit that if the Xbox can do that type of rendering it will most definitly have an advantage over the Gamecube and the PS2. HOWEVER, graphics are not eveything, it comes down to the games..and even in that department Xbox and Gamecube are still neck and neck. Some of you may disagree, but, if you think about it, GCN has the fun, cartoony like games that we all know and love, the simple (some of them) but extremely fun games. Xbox has the more mature games, more shooters. And I like both the simple fun cartoony games of Nintendo and the mature games that will be out for Xbox. It's a tight race....I'm still fully Gamecube though :D

[Pretendo]

BigSky, quit the talking and give me the link to the article, that exlains the picture. I'm not at the liberty or recieving news from such as biased source as yourself.

Now there's nothing saying GCN can't pull that off. Hell look at Star Wars Rogue Leader: Rogue Squadron II, extremley detailed, high poly, special Fx loaded visuals, all running at 60FPS. I've yet to see a single XB game run that fast. And with a higher framerate in the real world that makes GAMECUBE the superior console.

[Bladefall]

Wow I havn't seen anything about Rogue Leader yet! If its that good then maybe my post before this was pointless ;) . Anyway Prentedo could you give me a link to the site you found Rogue pics and stats on? Thanks.

[simps]

Originally posted by Next_Genner
It's true the article is on the official Xbox site. It mostly discusses how Xbox can produce images true to life like single grass blades blowing in the wind, and leaves on trees that look just like their real life counterparts when viewed closely, and yes it even talks about being able to see every single hair on a fuzzy bunny which is what has been the main focus about this topic. Then the article goes on to discuss how all of these things will be integrated into games to create a more immersive experience.


then uh... why dont they do it? i mean they can do it now and say that they can put it in a game... i havent seen it in a displayed game yet

[simps]

Originally posted by Bladefall
Wow I havn't seen anything about Rogue Leader yet! If its that good then maybe my post before this was pointless ;) . Anyway Prentedo could you give me a link to the site you found Rogue pics and stats on? Thanks.

you havent? why on igncube, just read the preview.. they say it looks like your are actually in the movie

[Pretendo]

Originally posted by Pretendo
BigSky, quit the talking and give me the link to the article, that exlains the picture. I'm not at the liberty or recieving news from such as biased source as yourself.

Now there's nothing saying GCN can't pull that off. Hell look at Star Wars Rogue Leader: Rogue Squadron II, extremley detailed, high poly, special Fx loaded visuals, all running at 60FPS. I've yet to see a single XB game run that fast. And with a higher framerate in the real world that makes GAMECUBE the superior console.

Unlike BigSky I can back up what I say with, solid sources.

http://cube.ign.com/previews/15337.html

[Pretendo]

Ohh one thing Bladefall, the screenshots don't do any games justice. When you see the animation and high speed of RSII, you'll see what I mean.
<center>
http://cubemedia.ign.com/media/previews/image/rogueleader/rleader6.jpg

It's hard to believe the video looks better than this:eek:

[BigSky]

the jedi shot is just another typical hi-polygonal, 'textured' image

the fur is on another order of 'texturing'

quite a difference to the trained eye that is

once again I present the link, it seems some have trouble seeing it
http://www.xbox.com

[Pretendo]

Originally posted by BigSky
the jedi shot is just another typical hi-polygonal, 'textured' image

NO. You've got some pair of drunk goggles on, not to see the HW lighting, SP-AA, Triscopic Filtering, and Bump Mapping to name a few. Lets not forget this is at a smooth 60FPS...

the fur is on another order of 'texturing'

Ha! PS2 can do that. It appears they're using simple fractal algorythm, thats such a simple technique I can't believe I thought for a second I underestimated XB:D Also be aware XB has the slowest CPU of the big 3

quite a difference to the trained eye that is

Read up. I hate when people who don't know what their talking about-talk.

once again I present the link, it seems some have trouble seeing it
http://www.xbox.com

Well if you had the competence to provide a link to the actual article it wouldn't be brushed off as the host:rolleyes:

Silly excuses....

[Edited by Pretendo on 06-21-2001 at 10:41 PM]

[Temjin]

Pretendo, the link the the article is right on the front page. Its right in your face, man.

Heres the direct link, Mr. Lazy. :p http://www.xbox.com/news/0106/1801.htm

Now that I've read more of the article, and the Research web site, I kind of doubt that the PS2 and GC can do this. At least not without taking a performance hit.

[simps]

Originally posted by Temjin
Pretendo, the link the the article is right on the front page. Its right in your face, man.

Heres the direct link, Mr. Lazy. :p http://www.xbox.com/news/0106/1801.htm

Now that I've read more of the article, and the Research web site, I kind of doubt that the PS2 and GC can do this. At least not without taking a performance hit.



Dude.. have you read no other articles? XBOX runs Malice at 20 frames per second.. if that isnt a performance hit i dont know what is! Meanwhile Eternal Darkness and Rogue Leader are cruising on by at a smooth 60 frames per second...

You guys can jerk yourselves off to your petty numbers-only technical articles.. I'll just let the overall performance speak for itself.. the results are right before your eyes... a two color screenshot of a bunny rabbit.. versus a high definition screenshot of a complex airborne battle over Bespin between the Alliance and the Empire which game would you rather play?

[Temjin]

Originally posted by simps

Originally posted by Temjin
Pretendo, the link the the article is right on the front page. Its right in your face, man.

Heres the direct link, Mr. Lazy. :p http://www.xbox.com/news/0106/1801.htm

Now that I've read more of the article, and the Research web site, I kind of doubt that the PS2 and GC can do this. At least not without taking a performance hit.



Dude.. have you read no other articles? XBOX runs Malice at 20 frames per second.. if that isnt a performance hit i dont know what is! Meanwhile Eternal Darkness and Rogue Leader are cruising on by at a smooth 60 frames per second...

You guys can jerk yourselves off to your petty numbers-only technical articles.. I'll just let the overall performance speak for itself.. the results are right before your eyes... a two color screenshot of a bunny rabbit.. versus a high definition screenshot of a complex airborne battle over Bespin between the Alliance and the Empire which game would you rather play?
... Agh. Alright, I think this is my third time mentioning this on this board. I hope this will be the last.

EVERYBODY WHO THINKS THE XBOX HAS SERIOUS FRAMERATE PROBLEMS READ THIS!!!

At E3, the 2nd phase dev kits did not have the sound processor in them. The PIII CPU was doing all the sound processing, pushing it too hard, and causing all the slowdown/bad framerates that you saw at E3. For those of you who aren't familiar with the Xbox's architecture, the CPU is only supposed to handle A.I. and physics. I think Pretendo mentioned once or twice how "weak" the CPU is... Its fine for those two simple tasks it has to do. All the graphics processing is done by the GPU. The sound processor is finished, which means it'll be doing all the sound from now on, and the CPU will be free to do only A.I. and physics. Which means, no more bad framerates. PLUS, theres no AGP bus on the Xbox. All the Xbox games you saw at E3 with bad framerates will be running silky smooth this fall.

I HOPE EVERYBODY READ THAT!!!... :D

And why is it that when we get into these technical debates, and it seems as though the Xbox is winning, you guys automatically bring up the "IT IZ ALL ABOUT GAMES POWER DOZ NOT MATTAR!!!"(Course, nobody here said it like that, but I know a lot of people who have :D). Hell, we weren't talking about games, we were talking about hardware. Why switch up the subject like that?

And if you really want to talk about games. Lets compare that Star Wars game with HALO, with the current build of HALO. Lots of things flying around screen at once. Large, detailed enviroments, just all around action packed just like that Star Wars game. I think they both look equally great. :)

[Edited by Temjin on 06-22-2001 at 04:08 AM]

[BigSky]

framerate problems on games that are not even releases yet??? please, get over it

if XBox games are released with terrible framerates or hits, then I will be pissed at MS, but till then I have them in high regard that the final game, running on final hardware will not have a problem.

I mean PS2 released so many problematic games it was pathetic. MS recgonized that and has promised not to embarass themselves. I like what MS says, i just hope they do it.

Oh, and that Star Wars Picture does not have one bit of bump-mapping. Not one, so try again pretender.

[dragulongx]

These are really good arguments! Pretendo vs Bigsky.

[Pretendo]

Uhh guys GCN games were'nt comlete at Spaceworld and Rogue Squadron II was in playable form, after only 19 days of development. Well if you've seen the video the sounds well there and it's running at a smooth 60FPS with 30,000 polygon ships with 4,000 poly pilots in the alpha layered, transparent cockpit. Now this was what only 10 months after Spaceworld? Microsoft seems to be funding these teams a lot better than Nintendo is mind you and Factor 5 is a 3rd party development team, Halo's being developed by Bungie which is a 2nd party and they're access to micro code, XDK's, people, and most of all money is a lot easier to reach. As for the sound being ran on the CPU I know, but I'm quite sure full AI has yet to be implemented, as well as physics. But once more your going to make the assumption anyways that it's fully implemented even though they can't even run sound of the DSP's, thats not hard at all, and Microsoft is touting Xbox as the easiest to develop for? I'm sure Sonic Team, Amusement Vision, Factor 5, Capcom, and Silicon Knights would say otherwise, as I haven't been hearing much developer acclaim in the means of a superior development API.:p

[BigSky]

I think compared to the PS2, anything is easier to develope for.

[Pretendo]

Originally posted by BigSky
I think compared to the PS2, anything is easier to develope for.

Very selective words there....

Just some FYI at E3 99' the PS2 titles in work didn't have FPS problems, or did they have to reroute sound tasks, all this done on hardest platform to develop for, a year before launch? That doesn't say to much for Xbox, or it's developers.

[BigSky]

then explain the inconsistency of the many lousy PS2 titles out there?

but then you are judging games that are not released yet

judge the games released for the PS2 and it would be more worthwhile, as there are major problems with slow down and frame rates and graphics etc etc

[dragulongx]

A lot of developers are just lazy. They're just using the cpu not the VU0 or the VU1. Some are working hard to pull off the true PS2's power. Also a lot of games are also just ports that use the cpu which is easy.

[Pretendo]

Originally posted by BigSky
then explain the inconsistency of the many lousy PS2 titles out there?

but then you are judging games that are not released yet

judge the games released for the PS2 and it would be more worthwhile, as there are major problems with slow down and frame rates and graphics etc etc

Try staying relevant to the topic. I wasn't pointing out inferior games there, I was pointing out inferior a platform to develop on.

Also once again your blowing a whole point I made all together, I pointed out PS2 games at E3 99' didn't have FPS problems, or many problems all together.

Also we're talking about the development stages, not the final product. Now stay on topic, as you can't seem to host a good, clean argument.

[BigSky]

where is the link for all the ps2 games not having FPS problems at E3 '99????

then what happened when some of those games were released and there were obvious fps problems???

face it dude, your tactics might impress you, but few else

[Pretendo]

Originally posted by BigSky
where is the link for all the ps2 games not having FPS problems at E3 '99????

then what happened when some of those games were released and there were obvious fps problems???

face it dude, your tactics might impress you, but few else

Your also judging games before they are out yet. What was your point there?

Once again we're talking about the development stages! How many times must I pummel you with that?

What tactics? I'm just being smart and on topic. You apparently can't seem to do so.:p

[cube4life]

pretendo and bigsky are just going at it. Round 12 who's going 2 get ko'd

[simps]

Originally posted by BigSky
framerate problems on games that are not even releases yet??? please, get over it

if XBox games are released with terrible framerates or hits, then I will be pissed at MS, but till then I have them in high regard that the final game, running on final hardware will not have a problem.

I mean PS2 released so many problematic games it was pathetic. MS recgonized that and has promised not to embarass themselves. I like what MS says, i just hope they do it.

Oh, and that Star Wars Picture does not have one bit of bump-mapping. Not one, so try again pretender.



yes it does have bump- mapping... why would everyone say it has bump mapping when it doesnt? even the developer showed examples of it when he talked you through the game in IGN's movies

ANYHOw so you're defending xbox by saying it wasnt finished at e3, so how do you expect them to have enough consoles at launch? 100$ more expensive, not quite as good games, has a noted 'frustrating' controller layout, and comes out a few months after the competition

[simps]

Enix: they say PS2 is really difficult to develop for... so they have a choice between GCN and XBOX... they supposedly chose GCN.. why? doesnt xbox have more power? Why would they choose GCN..?

[Temjin]

Originally posted by simps
Enix: they say PS2 is really difficult to develop for... so they have a choice between GCN and XBOX... they supposedly chose GCN.. why? doesnt xbox have more power? Why would they choose GCN..?
Because they know the Gamecube will do very well in both Japan and America in the future. The Xbox's future in the console biz is very cloudy, to say the least. Nobody knows how well it will do. S'not because of the power difference(Because the Xbox does have more overall power than the Gamecube), its about making money.

[Temjin]

Originally posted by Pretendo
As for the sound being ran on the CPU I know, but I'm quite sure full AI has yet to be implemented, as well as physics. But once more your going to make the assumption anyways that it's fully implemented even though they can't even run sound of the DSP's, thats not hard at all
Well I think it would be pretty hard to run sound off of them considering they weren't even in the XDKs at that time. :p

For HALO, the A.I. is around 75% complete. Physics should really work the CPU because things like small bullet shells in HALO use their own physics models. The CPU was really being pushed hard at E3. Read some of the recent HALO updates if you want proof.


and Microsoft is touting Xbox as the easiest to develop for? I'm sure Sonic Team, Amusement Vision, Factor 5, Capcom, and Silicon Knights would say otherwise, as I haven't been hearing much developer acclaim in the means of a superior development API.:p
Hm? Scuze meh?... When has Microsoft claimed that the Xbox was the easiest platform to develop on? I recall them saying that it was pretty easy to work with, but the "easiest"?... Get me a quote, pal.

[Pretendo]

To tell you the truth I did look for a quote and couldn't find one. I guess I'm used to Microsoft making half-assed claims:p

Also give me a good source for your specs and maybe then we could make a compromise here.

[Temjin]

Originally posted by Pretendo
To tell you the truth I did look for a quote and couldn't find one. I guess I'm used to Microsoft making half-assed claims:p
Heh, I know what you mean.


Also give me a good source for your specs and maybe then we could make a compromise here.
Looking for it right now. To be honest, I'm not sure if its in the HALO updates or in an article on some other website. I'll check through my history and find it though. Just give me some time. :)

If MATRIX-X, BigSky or anybody else who follows HALO pretty well can help me out, it would be greatly appreciated.

[Temjin]

Found it, Pretendo.

http://www22.brinkster.com/temjin/hyperhalo.jpg

I had it saved on my harddrive. Forgot all about it. ^_^;

But anyways, look at the bottom right of the scan under those screenshots where it says "ON BEING READY FOR LAUNCH". Says "The AI is about 75% of the way there...". :) And about the physics models for the bullet shells, look at the May 2001 issue of Gamepro. Has a one page article about HALO and mentions it there. AND(Gah...) about the sound processor not being included in the phase 2 dev kits, that was mentioned by Bungie once in an interview at some Xbox site... Argh! I gotta go look for that now.

[Edited by Temjin on 06-22-2001 at 09:40 PM]

[Pretendo]

Temjin don't get me wrong, so far you're the most restrained and relevant Xbox supporters I've meet and it's a pleasure instead of a chore to talk to you. But I'm gonna have to disagree with you.

1st the geocities link you gave me, is dead.

2nd it's hosted off geocities, not many reputable sites are.

But I'm a little more sided to agree with you than the others as you seem to know a bit more about what you're saying than the other residents of this thread.

[Temjin]

I fixed the link. :)

And thanks for the compliment.

[BigSky]

temjin, cool links man, better to educate those that need it
here, especially the anit-ms mod

[simps]

on a completely non related subject i just noticed bigsky's sig... "buy american.. buy xbox"

im not the first to say that holding the american market only will spell disaster for xbox.. face it- consoles right now NEED japanese interest to succeed

[dragulongx]

Simps is right w/o the Japanese video games would have been a fad in the first place and PC would have taken over.

[MATRIX-X]

at e3 al the sound was done by emulation on the p3 thus giving major frame dips.the AI was installed and there were many enemy's on screen+at a giving time 2 dropships.
why the emulation? because the chipset the MCPX wasnt in the alfa 2 kits(this chip is one hell of a audio chip)
also this chip is responsible for smooth hardrive streaming.
and i found it running rather smooth on 50% of expected hardware.
and ATARI was started by the american Nolan Bushnell .
and for RS2 running in 19 days is a myth, it was running in 19 day's on actually gamecube hardware it was running longer than that before on a system emulating the cube.

[Edited by MATRIX-X on 06-25-2001 at 08:19 AM]

[Temjin]

The networking kinda slowed it down as well. Thats why the single player game moved more smoothly than the multiplayer.

[Pretendo]

Originally posted by MATRIX-X
at e3 al the sound was done by emulation on the p3 thus giving major frame dips.the AI was installed and there were many enemy's on screen+at a giving time 2 dropships.
why the emulation? because the chipset the MCPX wasnt in the alfa 2 kits(this chip is one hell of a audio chip)
also this chip is responsible for smooth hardrive streaming.
and i found it running rather smooth on 50% of expected hardware.
and ATARI was started by the american Nolan Bushnell .
and for RS2 running in 19 days is a myth, it was running in 19 day's on actually gamecube hardware it was running longer than that before on a system emulating the cube.

[Edited by MATRIX-X on 06-25-2001 at 08:19 AM]

Did you read the article? Factor 5 was able to build a new engine version for the GCNDK, then port movie quality poly models (built from scratch by Factor 5, a 3rd party consisting only of 19 people, and privately funded), next surreal audio capabilities were implemented, and the game was quite playable at Spaceworld 2000 at a steady 60FPS, in which there were around 80 TIE Fighters on screen, along with real time lighting effects (now there are well over 80 AI ships on screen at once, along with HW lighting, bump mapping, specular lighting, dirt mapping, and sub pixel anti aliasing (which is superior to FSAA). Now lets not also forget Factor 5, were the sound geniouses behind GCN's fully interactive DSP and were also hard at work on Thornado. So lets compare Factor 5's team of 19, who is a independently funded, 3rd party, was able to do all this in a far shorter period of time, than Bungie who has been working on Halo since what?-98'? who has had their engine based around DX, as well as recieving more than enough funding from Microsoft, along with nessecary staff at their disposal for one project. My point is, that GCN's hardware is more efficient, streamlined, and more than powerfull enough for any developer, even one who's been loaded with multi-tasking for well over a year. Second I'd just like to point out the Halo isn't progressing all to fast, after getting all the goods Microsoft has to offer, along with plenty of time, and supposedly the "most powerfull console" in the world. Just staking my point.

[MATRIX-X]

i dont have the link but that 19 days was a myth and later confirmed by factor 5 i already had this discussion.
halo has chanced completly since jan. new engine new heading 1person single player vs 3 person tribes type.
in i hope your not trying to compare a spaceshooter wich is easy to make good looking to a 1 person shooter with a utra large draw distance,inverse kinetics,models with a lot of moving parts vs more static ones(people and monsters are more complex),one hell of an AI,and multiple units,weather,smooth movement between open en closed enviroments and deformable terain.
halo crappy? i dont think so.
and they just started on detailed objects,if you know what that means.

[simps]

so why didnt they just start all this eariler? it seems like microsoft is starting their console right now.. "system is being finalized right now" "just starting on the details" etc... sounds more and more like it wont be ready by november.. or at least itll be ready but not well supported gamewise

[Pretendo]

Originally posted by MATRIX-X
i dont have the link but that 19 days was a myth and later confirmed by factor 5 i already had this discussion.
halo has chanced completly since jan. new engine new heading 1person single player vs 3 person tribes type.
in i hope your not trying to compare a spaceshooter wich is easy to make good looking to a 1 person shooter with a utra large draw distance,inverse kinetics,models with a lot of moving parts vs more static ones(people and monsters are more complex),one hell of an AI,and multiple units,weather,smooth movement between open en closed enviroments and deformable terain.
halo crappy? i dont think so.
and they just started on detailed objects,if you know what that means.

Actually the rumor was 20 days, Factor 5 confirmed 19 days;p Yes they had been familiarized with the acrhitecture, but that was done via PC emulation. They got their actual DK's about a month prior to Spaceworld 2000, then wrapped up RS in 19 days.

Also the long list of features you have are really nothing much of a technical achievment. So far it's not even known if Xbox can even support progressive scan. Nor have any of the games claimed to use the feature. So bassically GCN games running at 60FPS are running at twice the speed as Xbox games at the same rate as you're only seeing 30 frames, which takes a large load off the developer and espescially the hardware.

Halo 'crappy'? I'm not to inclined to judge a game that I haven't played and you shouldn't be either. It's different with GCN games as most of them are sequels, ala SSBM of which I can expect the classic mechanics of the original with more refinements and tweaks.

[Cummings]

Originally posted by dragulongx
It looks fake and real at the same time.
it does, it does

[gratedragon]

You all realize its just one, still rabbit with no background or even much features beyond hair and shadows, I'm sure the fact that it is still also helped make it look good (I'm not going to outrule it being a fake), besides I play video games because of the neat way it's unlike the real world, not how it copies it.

[BigSky]

i like bunnies! xbunnies

it's funny how some just don't understand a technological first

don't you appreciate the art that is the bunny?
oh well, many have no appreciation for art anyway

[Pretendo]

A technological first? Hardly. Alias Wavefront has been on the cutting, bleeding edge of firsts in CG development. If you've seen previews for FF: TSW they used modified version of Maya to do a wide variety of textures, mainly comprising of hair, skin, and dirt filters to render "fuzzy stuff". Also no one has commented on the framerate that was rendered at. If it's pre-rendered it would be tottaly unfair to base power on, as virtually any computer/console than can run a 3D engine is capable of doing that.

[gratedragon]

I fully agree with Pretendo, and besides how is a brown rabbit a piece of art, and why is x-box wasting time on stupid shows of its power. Maybe they know the system will only survive off of HYPE, HYPE, HYPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[dragulongx]

Originally posted by BigSky
i like bunnies! xbunnies

it's funny how some just don't understand a technological first

don't you appreciate the art that is the bunny?
oh well, many have no appreciation for art anyway

You like the fuzzy turd xbunny?!?!?!?!

So why do you think Nintendo is so kiddy?

A fuzzy turd xbunny isn't as mature as Mario.

[neodragon]

[/QUOTE]

You like the fuzzy turd xbunny?!?!?!?!

So why do you think Nintendo is so kiddy?

A fuzzy turd xbunny isn't as mature as Mario.[/QUOTE]

Don't start on the mature bit as even the president of Sega America says that the games they bring to GC will match Nintendo target audience that is "just a tad younger" then other consoles.

Another quote from Peter Moore (Sega's Pres)

"But ultimately, our developers are smart enough to understand, that it's not so much what they like, but it's what the content--how it fits the demographic--and I think that, a year from now, we'll be looking very closely at what the demographics of each platform are, and what, you know, what they're bringing different to each gamer. And it may well be that Xbox has fully fleshed out what the hard drive brings, and that our studios start moving towards Xbox more aggressively, because they like the opportunity the hard drive brings."

[BigSky]

art in programming

have you ever tried programming?
or even trying to progam and image with pixel shading, polygons etc etc.

I have not.

But it is an art form. All game makers are artists to a certain extent. They just use a digital medium.

There is art to be appreciated in all games. This bunny is a form of art.

IF you can't recgonize this, you should cause you see art in every game you play, then you may be missing the point of what it takes to make a video game.

[Pretendo]

Why yes I have. I've got a few friends in the buisiness )XB and PS2) and I'm working with a startup software company. I've dug deep into serveral extensions of OGL API's along with DX API's as well. Yes it's a artform *looks back upon the days of the "hello world" c++ program*, but a most frustrating one at that. And just for the record OGL's a lot more efficient and you don't have to use as much lines of code as with DX, quite a few developers would agree as well.

[gratedragon]

While games are truly a work of art, a bunny made for what I see as the sole purpose of hyping a system is not art.

[neodragon]

Not hype just showing people what Next-Gen consoles can do.

[MATRIX-X]

maybe not as good as OGL but frustrating oh come on that is lame.a good programmer can do a miracle with DX.why on earth is this API so much used do you think? a bad API yeah right...

[Temjin]

DX isn't bad, its just that OGL is a bit easier to work with.

Xbox developers do have the choice of using DX8 or OGL... Only problem is, the Xbox isn't optimized to work with OGL. ;o

[Temjin]

Oh, and concerning the Bunny pick and the fuzz etc.... Its not all that great. But it will be when you see it in the games. This bunny picture and the screenshots of Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2X that we saw on xbox.com are just demonstrating one of the many great things the pixel/vertex shaders are capable of. The pixel/vertex shaders are going to make the Xbox games stand out graphically from PS2 and GC.

[BigSky]

sounds like pretender read some programming information off a web site and he is trying to impress

[Temjin]

Originally posted by BigSky
sounds like pretender read some programming information off a web site and he is trying to impress
OR maybe he actually knows what hes talking about...